as i have written before --you are the best father any of us could have had... no matter what our age is... thank you always for elevating civil discourse.
Robert, I completely agree with you that there should be discipline of university students who call for a genocide of the Jews. That the presidents of 3 top universities couldn’t clearly state that is beyond disturbing. And as you said, I believe this should be true across the board for any group.
I have been hearing more about the incredible brutality and horrifying rapes, torture and mutilations of women and some me during the Oct 7 attack. I looked up the reports and almost threw up. It doesn’t obviate the need to wage war according to international laws, but what was done to the Israelis on Oct 7th was utterly nauseating and beyond devastating and inhumane. Hamas is inhumane and barbaric.
I am also so saddened and sickened by the continuing hatred of a group of people for what? For nothing. What makes some hate others for their ethnicity, their skin color, for living their truth. I will never understand it.
I am also heartened to hear such good reports on the Biden economy and jobs. We need to shout it from the mountaintops. Even faux couldn’t deny it!!!
Thanks for your honestly and decency in reporting the important news to us week after week, for giving me hope for the future, and for sharing ways we can engage to help save our democracy. You are the best!
Dec 9, 2023·edited Dec 9, 2023Liked by Robert B. Hubbell
I haven't followed the story of the three university presidents closely, but it seems to me, as with many things, it's a lot more complicated than it would appear. I'm not even talking about the underlying cause (itself having many underlying causes) - the delicate balance in the Middle East that was upset by Hamas.
First of all, let me declare my utter ignorance of what precipitated the Congressional inquisition. Perhaps the universities and their presidents have been too tolerant and too supportive of First Amendment rights to the exclusion of others (not unlike gun rights advocates support of the Second Amendment rights to the exclusion of others).
Next, let me state that I abhor the political theater that gives a stage to the likes of Elise Stefanik, who by all accounts was relentless in her setting up the presidents with her prosecutorial style. Her accusatory and leading questions were intended to entrap, embarrass, and discredit the presidents.
Then there's the fact that the three presidents seemed utterly unprepared for the inquisition. Oh, and how about the fact that all three are women? How much of the backlash is misogyny unleashed?
And then there's the media's pursuit of gotcha moments, and the tendency to stir the pot to make the story more controversial. That's a subject unto itself, with their constant talk of red lines and hypothetical horribles.
How about we all just take a deep breath? Let's try, as Robert suggests, to inform, challenge, and support each other. Let's not feed each other to the lions.
Bob Morgan has noted many of the important facts about the Congressional inquisition.
* The political theater of leading questions in order to capture soundbites for social media.
* The Congressional grandstanding vilifying "experts" when the Congress and Legislators are not really willing or interested in taking action themselves.
(Prime example: Gun violence and killings in the USA compared to other nations.)
* The unabated misogyny!
* Universities are to educate - how about the parents, families, and communities, as well as the individual students, being addressed, NOT the place where the students can ACTUALLY be informed on issues and learn to view more than one perspective in their thinking and decision making?
* What about students and the upcoming generation being LISTENED TO?
Many are protesting ANY KILLING, not that many are calling for genocide.
Protests of the Vietnam War and other conflicts since, South African Apartheid, and other causes related to injustice are in fact necessary. We are now facing existential threats to human existence - our youth are scared, and not certain of a future.
What I am trying to say is virtually everything is a shade of gray, not black or white.
Those that take one side only often don't realize it is one side of a coin that includes BOTH sides.
Beautifully said, Beverly! I hope it's true that very few are calling for genocide. We can only hope that in college classrooms where discussions of this situation in the middle East are going on, that all sides are respected, and that threats are challenged. It is so complicated and delicate, as Bob Morgan has said, and finding the right tone and knowing when to step in and address threats, is the job of each Professor. Talk about a challenge!!!
Beautifully said, yes! But we might want to put these observations out there big time as the Republicans now begin to create another “investigation,” the only action they take anymore since it serves them well in the public arena of political theater absent any substance. Really - REALLY - makes my blood boil.
Those 3 Ivy Presidents were “ coached” by the same law firm. Is everything micro managed today ? These 3 women at the pinnacle of their careers cannot speak the truth of what they think of what the First Amendment protects ? They have parsed and chopped up the First Amendment so badly that its protections look sleazy. When those cretins marched in Charlottesville with their Tiki torches from Walmart, chanting “ the Jews will not replace us “ Donald Trump should have used the power of his bully pulpit to quash that immediately. But he did not as he did not on January 6th. Donald Trump did not cause this rise in anti semitism but he did not help.
Please elaborate; more details, please. I was puzzled by the uniformity of the presidents’ responses, but assumed the second and third witness simply latched onto the phrase offered by the first.
*Who* coached the university presidents?
With due respect to lawyers, I was troubled by what I consider the overly, narrowly legalistic, amoral responses of the university presidents.
Here’s some more information in a NY Times report. And just think, there was a time in the early 2000s when I recall newly printed law degrees were finding employment opportunities scares. Now they are out there drumming up business only to find three female presidents being hung out to dry:
Bob, I HAVE followed this story, including the piece by Michelle Goldberg in the NYT (thanks to Robert for the link), and I am in total agreement with you - Stefanik's setting up and attacking/accusing the 3 presidents was outrageous. She is the one who kept using the word "genocide". And of course , the continuing trauma of the Holocaust has triggered so much reactivity.
Stefanik had every right to introduce the word “genocide”. It was the figurative elephant in the room. By probing the university presidents, she could uncover the way they were thinking about the protests. I’m no fan of Stefanik, but I think her line of questioning exposed shallow thinking on the part of those presidents. They are supposed to be *thought leaders*, not mere administrative functionaries, not arid scholars.
I see the nuance too, and a responsible person would not predict all future circumstances. A rewording could be that I stand by Jewish rights to safety and autonomy. Hate has no place here. I am currently in Germany and they want to make a law that says that anyone who says anything against Israel is hate speech. Recently, the woman who was the subject of the film Unorthodox, who lives in Berlin, said that Germany supports all of the Jews except for ones like her who do not support the Israeli government. If anyone has seen the film, you see that she has had to question her givens and does not want to give that up for Groupthink! I don't blame her. Most of my Israeli friends are very against Netanyahu and are of the sort that would be joining the protests in Israel against him being in office. I believe they have started up again, so even being at war is not stopping it, particularly since many believe this will not be helpful to the hostages still kept by Hamas and whoever else may have taken them. Now European countries are disingenuous in their support of Jews wholesale, because it was the lack of wanting to take in Jews after WWII that led England to send more of them to the settlement they had created in Palestine around the time of WWI.
England was not alone in this decision. However, it did not turn out as it was originally imagined. Everyone wants a place to be safe. The way to make Israel safe for Jews and other inhabitants is to have an acceptance of their existence in Israel, and to have treaties that help them to maintain that. If they want to keep us as allies it helps for them and us to remain democratic countries. Many Israelis have dual citizenship with other countries, and depending on their perceived safety in these other countries they feel more or less safe in Israel. There are generational differences in experiences of Israeli's that make them feel more or less safe. When I checked on my US neighbor's son in Israel since he is 21, she told me he was safely working behind a computer in the military, while her concerns were with the people of Gaza. Another Jewish friend, who is in the USA, has been supporting good friends who are a Palestinian-Thai couple, who are trying to get their daughter out of Palestine to come home. Palestinians want to be heard too. I am someone who supports this ending with a 2 State solution. Friday night, my daughter baked cookies with a friend from Brazil which they took to a Hanukkah party of good friends, which includes US and Israeli Jews, Ukrainians, Vietnamese, Singapore and Azerbaijani friends. There are people in Palestine and Israel who are trying to bring about peace and harmony between the two groups. "The sun rises and sets on the British Empire," has not turned out well for the people of Israel and Palestine, and at least I do not see a British presence in this situation trying to help bring about peace.
Israel is where we may soon be. Most of the citizens don’t support the government, but the government doesn’t care. They have their own radicals who cheat and change laws that are anathema to the majority. God forbid we see ourselves there in less than a year.
Thanks, Linda, for the thoughtful and insightful response. In contrast, the "inciteful" reactions of many are part of the problem. A call for genocide by anyone is abhorrent and should be easy to condemn, but so should the focus on any one aspect of a very complex and longstanding dilemma.
I can only hope that the dust settles quickly on this and we can get back to trying to restore peace and establish a two state solution that everyone can live with. Hamas must go, but so must Netanyahu. Maybe that's the discussion that should be taking place.
Bob, I agree with you - this was political theatre. What bothers me most is Elise Stefanie calling these university presidents out when she supports a man who is a consummate bully, verbally harasses and points a rhetorical weapon at anyone who criticizes or opposes him, has been adjudicated as a rapist and has no problem putting children in cages or separating them from their families. Lastly, I am Jewish and I don’t give a whit what people say so long as it doesn’t become action. It is at that point, it becomes harassment and bullying.
Well said. The reports of Stepanik “relentless in her setting up the presidents with her prosecutorial style” really caught my attention. All too often we read, hear, and see the power driven conduct of leaders or ordinary citizens taking every opportunity to gain advantage regardless of the costs. Now we see that M. Elizabeth Magill has resigned along with the board chair.
Surely few beyond the community of UPenn knew her prior to this past week. What was her career like? How successful was she in her short tenure as president? How did she exemplify the leadership skills we value? She is one more casualty in the many storms we each seem so captured by, often with little understanding or care about the complexity of our humanity and history.
At every new story, at every lost life, at every derailed career, at every future potential ended in chaos and blood my heart aches, cries, and wakes to another day hoping and seeking a better humanity.
I believe we are better than many of these stories or reports of our meanness reflect. I look not to an external god, but to the our personal spirit of shared humanity exalting the quote over the alter of my long ago confirmation, “God is love.”
So many in our Today’s Edition community are showing the way from the author to the many readers who speak truth to power. Thank you.
Thanks, John. I like to think we are part of the better humanity of which you speak. We must remain independent thinkers and strive to be thoughtful, considerate, and protective of each other.
To quote myself (a dangerous move), "As humans, we are endowed with the incomparable ability to think for ourselves. Too many of us succumb to the incomprehensible tendency to avoid doing so." That realization keeps me going.
Donald Trump is intentionally breaking down the First Amendment door with his hatchet of a mouth. We no longer understand the legal lines against "incendiary" speech because that is Trump's stock in trade. Just watch judges struggle mightily to keep this buckling guardrail in place against him. (AKA gag orders) No wonder students are confused about what is legal, protected speech -- and what isn't. Calling for mass murder of any group clearly, to my mind, meets the illegal test. Period. Robert makes this obvious and unassailable point continuously; what is there left to discuss?
Agreed & I would argue it's true for most of us. Sadly, another example of society's corrosion due to the relentless disinformation & moral affronts of the extremist right.
I agree, even though I'm pretty far left. For too many people, their politics is their religion, and they fail to think about it, to question what they believe, and instead, they just go along with whatever their group seems to think.
Thank the Gods that my parents, grandparents, aunties and uncles taught us right from wrong, spent time with us and modeled right action, kindness, and how to think critically… Doing the right thing isn’t always easy but it’s always as plain as the nose on my face. As Steven says many young’s have grown up without the luxury of accountability or a good sound talking to.
I thank my parents for guiding me to take account and responsibility to recognize right and wrong.
Yet, might I add that most, if not all of my teachers in a public high school and the professors at the State’s only public university taught me critical thinking and expected that I ask questions to embrace the practice of critical thinking and self reflection. For this and more I am proud of Rutgers University.
But some of them ARE confused - if you're speaking about students. Many of them are 18. They are young and may be either uninformed or disinformed. And as you point out, have perhaps been brought up hearing angry discussions about the state of our country and the world. They may yet be unable to distinguish between these arguments and as Bob Morgan says, get to the third thing - which is the truth.
Good point about Donald Trump, as well as his followers, who have filled the airwaves with onslaughts against the rule of law and institutions that have been revered up to this point. Yet, students need to be taught by the adults in the room, what is appropriate and what is not. Just as Robert is trying to teach all of us, who still need reminders of the appropriateness of what we say.
It isn’t simply a question of legal “fault lines”. It’s a matter of ethics and moral character. On these matters, the university presidents and their defenders have, IMHO, failed abjectly.
“Calling for mass murder of any group clearly, to my mind, meets the illegal test.” —
Narrow legality is not, in my opinion, the sole or appropriate test. These demonstrations occurred in a *university* community, a place where speech should promote and increase understanding and humaneness. Universities are failing in that educational responsibility.
I don’t think many students or the college presidents or even the interrogators have the same understanding of intifada and “ from the river to the sea”. Some interpret these as calls for genocide and others as standing with the oppressed against the occupiers. It is a big stretch to say that anyone who says this is calling for the killing of all Jews.
The schools, and their administrators are in a bind when those who say those are calls for genocide try to push them into a position of needing to accept that the students meant that and therefore need to be punished, perhaps expelled, lose scholarships, and have it in their records that they are virulent anti-Semites.
In my opinion the educators response is to have further education and the answer that was given by the Harvard president that context is important was the right answer.
There are writers who explained why the interrogator was the villain in this approach to how to deal with antisemitism on campus. I think they are correct. Banning the words in every context and assuming every person who says those phrases needs to be punished is a moral and legal overreaction and will lead to more not less harm.
Over doing it, whether by the IDF or the college administration, is the way to perpetuate and feed the conflict. It is not a way to a solution.
My fear is that the GQP will now justify further oversight of selected universities for all kinds of made-up reasons. And by the way, this kind of speech is happening everywhere, not just elite universities. The GQP attacks those in particular because they pretend that “elites” are the problem. Most of these horrid politicians (Stefanik included) attended “elite” universities. Why did they go there? Did they attack the universities they attended at the time? I am certain that anti-semitism is going on at the University of Florida as well as lots of other regular, state schoools. Why not hold a committee hearing about anti-semitism on college campuses in general? Because that doesn’t fit the MAGA narrative. And it gives them more fuel to try to make all universities experiments in right-wing education!!!!!! I also wonder if three white men had been the university presidents, would big bad Stefanik treat them with the disdain and manufactured fury that she did with these women. They will now all pay a price, and the MAGA voters can tell themselves that elite universities are “indoctrinating” their students to be anti-Semitic. Nothing could be further from the truth.
I am in complete agreement with you, DK. Stefanik is the one who repeatedly used the word "genocide". Thank you for spelling out that this is an interpretation of the word "intifada" and the phrase "from the river to the sea".
The response on a college campus is to have further educational discussions. Not to assume students are set in their views and fully understand the connotations and meaning of “coded” words.
The next question the interrogator was going to ask was “what are you going to do to those students who said “from the river to the sea”? How many have you expelled?”
Is everyone who repeats a slogan because they have a sympathy to a cause calling for the harshest interpretation and needs to be punished the same way? It depends on context, as the Harvard president said, and we should back them. Their job is to weigh things in context.
The context in this case is hate, violence, and intolerance.
Not a place I would be proud to say I attended or would attend.
I have said it before: I have heard Yassar Arafat's chief legal counsel and Imed Moustaffa, the last Syrian ambassador before the US broke off relations. These people's words are dangerous and put angry murderous thoughts into people's heads. Oh yeah...and the Syrians have gassed around a half a million of their own people. That is context.
Stefanik’s use of the word “genocide” was based on HER interpretation of words/ phrases used by students. Her use of the word “genocide” was inflammatory.
Words DO matter - just look at the reactions to her interrogation at the hearing - the fallout for the university presidents.
“Some interpret these as calls for genocide and others as standing with the oppressed against the occupiers. It is a big stretch to say that anyone who says this is calling for the killing of all Jews.” —
Maybe.
Instead of focusing on the hypothetical intent of people who make these chants, why not focus on how they are *received*? To many, especially Jews, the chants are alienating and threatening (talk about “context”!). Alienating, threatening language should havd no place or sanction in a university community.
The congressional investigation (or whatever it was) did not look at how they were received. It was leading to punishing those who said the words as if they were intended to be equivalent to “kill all the Jews”. I don’t believe everyone who said it meant that. Even if one believes all the land should be for Palestinians it is a stretch to say that person wants to kill all Jews and should be handed a severe punishment by his educational institution.
I can’t speculate about the intent, perhaps mindless, of chanting “From the river to the sea”. But the *effect* is what counts. Shouting “fire!” in a crowded theatre is punishable even if the shouter only thought it was a funny prank. Similarly, using alienating, threatening language (even mindlessly) should be condemned if not punished.
The university presidents didn’t even condemn the language.
Young people are an entitled bunch and many of them see the ‘rights’ as their’s for the taking. They don’t seem to take note the of all the responsibilities of being a citizen, they don’t act like people who realize those rights were hard fought for. Sorry (not sorry), you can’t say just anything you want.
The real issue is look at Trump and imagine he is a role model for many youth who believe they can say anything true or false and attack and tear down the system. Former presidents did it why can’t I ?
Yes, these students are young and may not have the skills yet to hold two thoughts in their minds at the same time. Learning to express oneself thoughtfully is part of what college is for, and many are not good at it yet. The adults in the college classrooms where the Middle East is being discussed must help these young people see that there is terrible suffering on both sides of this conflict.
Apparently many think the 1st Amendment gives the right to say anything, Mr. Trump and many members of Congress certainly do. However disturbing, it is not surprising that racism, anti-semitism and so many other forms of hate are freely and dangerously expressed on university campuses. As violence as well was tolerated on January 6 and nearly daily on our streets, shops, schools and in homes, we, as a nation, we should expect youngsters to follow their elders.
I support your newsletter unconditionally. You are a brilliant, empathetic, clarifying voice that everyone in America needs to hear loud and clearly. Thank you.
Thank you for all of your amazing work and dedication to keep this newsletter going. It has grown a community, and we will not lose our core even if there are heated arguments here.
For some inspiration, please look at this great sculpture that depicts the generational struggle for democracy. That’s what we’re all about here. The sculpture I’m referencing is “Government of the People” by the Jewish immigrant artist Jacques Lipchitz. Here’s a link to some views of that sculpture and its background story. I’ve also posted this llnk to the Heather Cox Richardson blog because art like this has the power to lift us up. Your newsletter lifts us up as does Heather’s.
I agree, Lynell. I read some other newsletters, and there is so much argumentative discourse, including repulsive personal insults to other commenters, that I come here to find relief from that. I think that overall people here are respectful of each other; but I did look through the comments on Robert’s Thursday, newsletter late in the day. I could see why he shut down the discourse. It was getting a little bit ugly.
I am a Robert and Jill fan as well! You all have been a source of hope (and I do have a lot) these last years. Thank you!
And now, fellow, activists, I could use help. You have likely read that late last night, the Texas Supreme Court essentially blocked a court ordered permission for a pregnant woman here to access and abortion for health reasons, per her doctor's recommendation. Unbelievable. Non-Texans especially, could you take a minute to contact a Texas newspaper to let them know the rest of the country is watching as Texas does this to one of its own. We have seen recently that feedback to media is effective--we need more. Please also let me know of any other Texas media contacts. Thank you.
Yes. I think it's also ironic that he himself, who has been indicted for years, has managed to delay his trial for years. I have been told by others more knowledgeable than me that this is why we need two healthy, functioning parties--in Texas, we do not have that.
Thank you so much. Our media and our corporations here really need to step up--our R state leaders routinely ignore opinions shared by 80% of us. Not sure where else to turn, frankly.
Speaking of Hunter Biden, James Comer has managed to prove to the world that exists beyond the halls of GOP leadership of the House, that the Chairman of the House Oversight Committee and the representative of KY's 1st District is, not to put too fine a point on it, an idiot. The US Congress is ill served by blowhards wantonly neglecting their duty to pass constructive legislation and pass a budget to avoid the next debt crisis. To put icing on the cake, it strikes me that the dogged pursuit of Hunter Biden is remarkably un-Christian for such a pious bunch.
The over-sized punishment of Hunter Biden is the MAGAts attempt to throw dirt on Biden's campaign. The R's are (as usual) are doing precisely what they continuously accuse the Biden administration of doing. They refuse to recognize that every accusation that they level is a confession of guilt.
And of course ----- it's trying desperately to draw a false equivalence between Biden's son and Trump's overt corruption. A big difference being: Hunter Biden will never be president.
An excellent point. Very, very little outrage or discussion or examination of Jared Kushner getting a gigantic gift from the Saudis approximately immediately after serving in the White House. The hypocrisy of Gym Jordan and James Comer with the tacit support of Mike Johnson is revolting. Appalling. Typical. Thank you Fox.
Thank you Pam Smith and Dean Gavney! My 3 cents on Biden ala Substack:
Imagine a doctor tells you definitively that you have only 5 more years to live. At best. There’s nothing major wrong with you, you’re feeling pretty good, but statistically, and here again, definitively, you’ll be gone in 5 years.
Where do you go in your mind? For many seniors, even those of us in relatively good health, this is a possibility we live with, at least rattling in the back of our minds, every day. Of course, there are those who will decide simply to enjoy themselves by reading all those books they haven’t gotten to yet, or play as much golf as humanly possible. And why not? Our country tells us we are close to the end of the road. We’ve made our mark and done our time. Move over and let the next generation take their turn. May as well hang it up before it gets embarrassing. But what if you have only that long to literally save the world’s strongest and most powerful Democracy from the vicious narcissistic bully chomping at the bit to destroy it? And you are, for the moment, the person with the position, requisite skills, experience, relevant history and social capital to effectively fight back?
What if you are Joe Biden? It’s one thing to step aside and hand over the reins to…who? That’s a problem. Anyone younger you can name is going to be untested, unappealing to some crucial constituency, and lacking at least some of the vital resources just listed, critical in facing down Democracy’s demise. IMHO Biden has no choice but to press on in a contest determined to push him aside because the stakes are simply too high for him not to. Here’s the thing about age that so many people in this country do not understand. Reduced time left can become an engine. It can focus a person on using everything they have to achieve the mission. The periphery falls away, clarity brings its own energy, vision and thrust. Of course, possible jail time can also focus an elder on staying out of it. Even if he brings down our entire nation in the process. I’m not worried about Joe Biden in a second term. I worry about Americans wringing their hands over one man’s wrinkles when they should be focused on the other guy’s fangs.
"I'm not worried about Joe Biden in a second term. I worry about Americans wringing their hands over one man's wrinkles when they should be focused on the other guys fangs." 💥💯
Please note: my comment has to do with ensuring that our comment section stays collegial and supportive, and that it does not descend into divisive subjects that distract us from fighting for democracy. I have an entirely different take on the issue of Biden's age, just not wanting to present my viewpoints on a specific issue, in the context of how to discuss specific issues!
Well said 🤗 Indeed, hand the reins to....? We need all the younguns these days in their positions as governors, Senators, Representatives, state attorneys general, state legislators, mayors, county/city officials to keep democracy going in their capacities so what President Biden is doing is for not for naught. Wrinkles and all.
This is a minor point, but: “statistically, and here again, definitively, you’ll be gone in 5 years” is generally mathematical nonsense. Statistics can predict the overall *odds*, but it does not make definitive statements.
"To be clear, I would support the same result for a call for genocide directed at any group." I feel exactly the same way. I think of what happened in Rwanda, with the genocide of the Tutsis. Is it REALLY OK to shout in favor of killing any group of human beings? My answer: absolutely not.
University campuses should be places for discussion of ideas. Calling for a genocide of Jews or any other group, is not discussion of the idea of genocide, it is calling on people to kill others, to break the sixth commandment. If you live your life according to the precept of “do unto others, as you would have others do unto you“ genocide could never be an option. I would have hoped that any university president would have denied a genocide of any group of people existing on the Earth.
Robert, you are the very best and I am extremely happy being in your company. I think yesterday’s newsletter ignited me and perhaps I went over the cliff’s edge. I am just a strong women’s advocate and between Hamas’ brutality against women and the three female presidents, I couldn’t help myself. I hope I had made sense in my babble-rousing.
Watching Comer is spellbounding! He has to be the dumbest guy from Kentucky. According to Wikipedia, Comer got a BS degree in Agriculture. My BS degree stands for Bachelor’s of Science. His must stand for BullShit.
As to your monitoring the comments section, well stated!
I am uneasy with lengthy, emphasis lengthy, comments from those who also have a substack newsletter! It has the appearance of the equivalent of ‘photo bombing’!
Suggestion make your point then link your newsletter!
I have not posted much recently only because of time. I had several activities that are taking a lot of my brain energy and my time, all with respect to climate change and bringing Biden Administration resources to underserved communities vulnerable to climate disasters. I had no idea people are trolling your (our) comment section.
My own interest in this newsletter is that it gives me support for the issues I am working on, puts me in touch with others so that we can support one another. On other so called progressive Facebook sites I have found that people post with agendas and frame their posts to meet those agendas. Sometimes people post with the express purpose of dividing those of us who are working on progressive, liberal or Democratic issues, and weaken us as we prepare for the 2024 elections. (I think those people are called Trolls)
This site feels different, as it is populated by people who are actually working on things, and not people whose main political activities consist of reading social media, listening to cable news, and posting zingers about MAGA people, as the main way of thinking we are being politically active. (Please read Politics is for Power, by Eitan Hersh)
Anyway, I fully support keeping this site as one that is networking and supportive of like-minded people who wish to inform others of what we are all doing, and sharing perspectives on how to frame issues and work on them.
I am not out to convince anyone to change their point of view. We all appear to understand that we do not all agree on specifics within a particular issue, but we do all support democracy and progressive ideas. We recognize the need to work together despite having some differences of opinion.
The more successful we are with that approach, the more certain people will want to undermine it. One way they do that, of course, is to use what appears to be a progressive idea, and accuse Biden, or progressives, or Democrats, of being anti-whatever that progressive idea is and try to start us fighting with one another.
We obviously see that with some people who are accusing Biden of genocide of the Palestinian people by supporting Israel. We hate to limit free speech, so instead we respond with reason, history, feelings, etc., then we are off to the races.
I had a sinking feeling when Elise Stefanik was interrogating the presidents of universities, and Robert, your comments on that explained my sinking feelings. Here in Florida, there is an all-out assault on liberal thought in colleges and universities. The narrative on Morning Joe is that leftist thought is out of control in colleges and universities. I saw Stefanik's purpose as one to undermine liberalism in universities. She succeeded.
Here in the U.S., we believe in free speech and the First Amendment. If you remember the Nazi march in Skokie, Ill. years ago, and the ACLU fought for their right to have a permit? Many of my Jewish friends stopped donating to the ACLU. Same dilemma: Nazis should not have any platform to spew their hate; Or, If you allow certain groups to be censored, it is going to come right back to your group in the end. I live in Florida, remember?
In Europe some countries do not allow Nazi organizations to exist and shut down Nazi rhetoric. It has not stopped the rise in influence of neo-Nazi and fascist organizing and influence.
I do think that ACTIONS that are hateful, dangerous and destructive should be illegal, and that any speech that exhorts people to act in an illegal way should be criminal. I think trying to shut down racist or antisemitic thought is a mistake and does not work to shut it down.
I think that ACTIONS that are meant to overthrow our democracy should be illegal and those who do it should be held accountable and not be allowed to hold public office. Trying to shut down a discussion of different forms of government and political philosophy is a bad idea and does not work to stop people who are racist or antisemitic from trying to form white nationalist governments.
To be clear, speech that exhorts people to conduct genocide of Jews, or any group of people, in my view is criminal. Hope that clears up any misconception about what constitutes speech protected by the First Amendment, and speech that is not.
In my view, this is the type of discussion we should be having, the pros and cons of shutting down fascist or nazi or white nationalist speech, vs. the importance of the way in which the First Amendment has been interpreted in the U.S.
I fully support your pulling the plug on speech here that has the goal of dividing us so that we stop doing the work, but allowing speech that is meant to fully air differing viewpoints on our issues.
Thank you Robert. You are such a beacon of good will and good sense.
Regarding the university presidents. I think the problem is that there is disagreement on what calling for genocide means in this case. Because of successive Israeli governments’ political campaigns to elide being Jewish with being Zionist, many people in the US now think that disagreeing with Zionism is antisemitic and or potentially genocidal speech. Given the variety of opinions of Jews around the globe, that is clearly a misuse of the term genocide and also a misuse in terms of the legal definition. Calling for the explicit destruction of all people belonging to an ethnic or religious group in the definition of genocide. Ie saying all Jews have to die is genocidal, calling for the end of Israel is not necessarily. I think the university leaders would have been much better served had they made those distinctions, in which case they could have clearly stated that genocidal talk is unacceptable, even on a university campus.
Yes, Thank you. I think this is fundamental. Stefanik and the entire right-wing ecosystem have cynically taken a very complex debate and turned it into a caricature that they are easily and effectively using to further undermine “liberalism” and faith in liberal institutions, democrats, democracy, and everything else that they despise. And they can’t believe their good fortune that so many otherwise reasonable people in the center are losing their minds by drinking their poisonous cool-aide.
We, all of us, need to help people back from this this insidious drink, this ugly brink. Thankfully, we have Robert in the leadership of such efforts!
But the fact that presidents of top universities could not bring themselves to make those distinctions is deeply troubling. They are not being leaders.
“Calling for the explicit destruction of all people belonging to an ethnic or religious group in the definition of genocide. Ie saying all Jews have to die is genocidal, calling for the end of Israel is not necessarily.” –
How so? What would become of Israelis if their nation were to come to an end? How would their nation be ended? I think you may be splitting straws.
Robert, I apologize for commenting on something that occurred last Tuesday December 5th, but I've been so swamped by trying to pull together a "post retirement" radio show, that I just couldn't focus on commenting. The show still isn't done, but I feel I can't just remain silent. That said, here goes:
I was shocked when I heard on the Tuesday December 5th edition of the PBS Newshour that President Biden stated, "If Trump wasn't running, I'm not sure I would be running. We cannot let him win." In other words, the president wants to protect the nation from Trump. I must admit that I was disappointed that, as far as I could tell, you didn't discuss this statement. It seems to me that the statement implies that deep down, President Biden would prefer to retire, rather than be a candidate for re-election in 2024. A number of months ago, I had thoughts that President Biden might decide not to run and announce that decision sometime before the campaigns began in earnest. Considering his Tuesday statement, I find it hard to picture him waging a vigorous campaign. I worry that he just doesn't have the juice for it. If not Joe Biden, then who? Kamala Harris? I'm not sure. Gavin Newsom? It seems to me that he would be a strong candidate, but I've been told he was asked and declined. I have to confess, this situation fills me with angst. Am I out in left field? I would greatly appreciate your thoughts on this.
He is a great president, and he will not abandon America when needed. There is no one else who could run and win, or do what is needed in such a difficult historical moment. What I heard in this statement was he acknowledges worries about him, and also knows he is needed and can’t drop the ball. Love him!
I wish that, like President Biden, Democratic members of Congress would hang on, rather than retiring or refusing to run for re-election, at least until we get the ship turned around and headed in the right direction. It may be a sacrifice, but the fewer Senate and Congressional seats we have to worry about, the better. Let Republicans give up and go home—I am fine with that!!!😉
When Biden stated, "If Trump wasn't running, I'm not sure I would be running. We cannot let him win,"I was grateful, not disappointed. We are years into unprecedented times, dealing with a series of unprecedented threats, which are all connected to Trump. To realize the magnitude, reach and breadth of the threat of a second Trump presidency is basic honesty. And for Biden to understand that he, Biden, is uniquely situated by skills, connections, history and performance in his first presidential term, to continue to strengthen our democracy, is a statement of fact.
Pam Smith, I’m with you 100%. Rather than make me doubt Joe Biden, it made me admire him more. He’s needed, he wishes that wasn't so, but he’ll answer the call. What is more patriotic than that?
Exactly. Thank you. We should all read and re-read and spread the fact that Biden is probably the most effective presidents in the last 50 years. We need him now. I am honestly tired of hearing democrats or left leaning voters bring up the age issue over and over again, ruminating and saying to others Biden is “too old”. To my friends and acquaintances who are doing this - I listen, then I tell them if they want to stop a dictatorship in America, to get behind Biden, tell people all that he is doing/has done as president, how incredible he is, that he has an amazing team behind him, and the V.P. Is being trained and like her or not, is ready for the job. Say: I’m behind Joe 100%. That’s what we can do.
Kamala Harris was unsuccessful as a candidate for president. She dropped out before the first primary due to lack of support. Gavin Newsom is the governor of the most liberal state in the union. He would not sell in swing states (I believe).
To your question, I didn't comment on Biden's statement because it seems like "inside baseball" to me. He's running. Triangulating his inner motivations is, to me, just another way of implying he is not up for the job. I am fifteen years younger than Biden and couldn't keep up with his schedule. I can tell I am not as sharp as I was 15 years ago. Same is true for everyone.
My only comments on his statement are (a) I wish he wouldn't have said it, but that's Joe being genuine and true to who he is; and (b) shame on the Democrat who attended a private fundraiser and immediately repeated the comment to the press.
I think the discussion over Biden's age is a release for expressing anxiety that Trump may win. if it wasn't his age, it would be center-left politics, or his family (oh, wait, they are trying that already), his treatment of Anita Hill, etc. etc. I think it is a manufactured worry. By every objective measure Biden's age is not an impediment.
Wouldn't any sane person think twice about running for president? My take is that Joe Biden is the sort of person who shares his thoughts. As a political strategy, not a great idea. But he wins me over on a regular basis because he reveals his humanity - rather than trying to be a guy wearing an "Iron Man" suit spewing all sorts of tough sounding nonsense.
I am with Joe until Joe says he is retiring. And if or when he does step away, I am also VERY confident that the Democratic bench of talent is very deep. I could list a dozen or two, but I am now conscious of Robert's desire to keep these comments concise :)
Your reading too much in to his comment and the media jumped all over it. I think what he meant was he is the best person to defeat Trump and he knows that it’s too late to find another candidate and his job is now to save Democracy from disaster a job he will accept.
as i have written before --you are the best father any of us could have had... no matter what our age is... thank you always for elevating civil discourse.
Robert, I completely agree with you that there should be discipline of university students who call for a genocide of the Jews. That the presidents of 3 top universities couldn’t clearly state that is beyond disturbing. And as you said, I believe this should be true across the board for any group.
I have been hearing more about the incredible brutality and horrifying rapes, torture and mutilations of women and some me during the Oct 7 attack. I looked up the reports and almost threw up. It doesn’t obviate the need to wage war according to international laws, but what was done to the Israelis on Oct 7th was utterly nauseating and beyond devastating and inhumane. Hamas is inhumane and barbaric.
I am also so saddened and sickened by the continuing hatred of a group of people for what? For nothing. What makes some hate others for their ethnicity, their skin color, for living their truth. I will never understand it.
I am also heartened to hear such good reports on the Biden economy and jobs. We need to shout it from the mountaintops. Even faux couldn’t deny it!!!
Thanks for your honestly and decency in reporting the important news to us week after week, for giving me hope for the future, and for sharing ways we can engage to help save our democracy. You are the best!
I haven't followed the story of the three university presidents closely, but it seems to me, as with many things, it's a lot more complicated than it would appear. I'm not even talking about the underlying cause (itself having many underlying causes) - the delicate balance in the Middle East that was upset by Hamas.
First of all, let me declare my utter ignorance of what precipitated the Congressional inquisition. Perhaps the universities and their presidents have been too tolerant and too supportive of First Amendment rights to the exclusion of others (not unlike gun rights advocates support of the Second Amendment rights to the exclusion of others).
Next, let me state that I abhor the political theater that gives a stage to the likes of Elise Stefanik, who by all accounts was relentless in her setting up the presidents with her prosecutorial style. Her accusatory and leading questions were intended to entrap, embarrass, and discredit the presidents.
Then there's the fact that the three presidents seemed utterly unprepared for the inquisition. Oh, and how about the fact that all three are women? How much of the backlash is misogyny unleashed?
And then there's the media's pursuit of gotcha moments, and the tendency to stir the pot to make the story more controversial. That's a subject unto itself, with their constant talk of red lines and hypothetical horribles.
How about we all just take a deep breath? Let's try, as Robert suggests, to inform, challenge, and support each other. Let's not feed each other to the lions.
Bob Morgan has noted many of the important facts about the Congressional inquisition.
* The political theater of leading questions in order to capture soundbites for social media.
* The Congressional grandstanding vilifying "experts" when the Congress and Legislators are not really willing or interested in taking action themselves.
(Prime example: Gun violence and killings in the USA compared to other nations.)
* The unabated misogyny!
* Universities are to educate - how about the parents, families, and communities, as well as the individual students, being addressed, NOT the place where the students can ACTUALLY be informed on issues and learn to view more than one perspective in their thinking and decision making?
* What about students and the upcoming generation being LISTENED TO?
Many are protesting ANY KILLING, not that many are calling for genocide.
Protests of the Vietnam War and other conflicts since, South African Apartheid, and other causes related to injustice are in fact necessary. We are now facing existential threats to human existence - our youth are scared, and not certain of a future.
What I am trying to say is virtually everything is a shade of gray, not black or white.
Those that take one side only often don't realize it is one side of a coin that includes BOTH sides.
Excellent, Beverly! Perhaps even more accurate as a conclusion, quoting Robert Evans:
"There are three sides to every story: Your side, my side, and the truth. And no one is lying. Memories shared serve each differently."
I fear the “bothsidesism of our MSM. Protests serve an agenda, both side comments often serve to elevate one and denigrate another. Be careful.
Beautifully said, Beverly! I hope it's true that very few are calling for genocide. We can only hope that in college classrooms where discussions of this situation in the middle East are going on, that all sides are respected, and that threats are challenged. It is so complicated and delicate, as Bob Morgan has said, and finding the right tone and knowing when to step in and address threats, is the job of each Professor. Talk about a challenge!!!
Beautifully said, yes! But we might want to put these observations out there big time as the Republicans now begin to create another “investigation,” the only action they take anymore since it serves them well in the public arena of political theater absent any substance. Really - REALLY - makes my blood boil.
Those 3 Ivy Presidents were “ coached” by the same law firm. Is everything micro managed today ? These 3 women at the pinnacle of their careers cannot speak the truth of what they think of what the First Amendment protects ? They have parsed and chopped up the First Amendment so badly that its protections look sleazy. When those cretins marched in Charlottesville with their Tiki torches from Walmart, chanting “ the Jews will not replace us “ Donald Trump should have used the power of his bully pulpit to quash that immediately. But he did not as he did not on January 6th. Donald Trump did not cause this rise in anti semitism but he did not help.
Like: "Those 3 Ivy Presidents were “ coached” by the same law firm." Good point!
Please elaborate; more details, please. I was puzzled by the uniformity of the presidents’ responses, but assumed the second and third witness simply latched onto the phrase offered by the first.
*Who* coached the university presidents?
With due respect to lawyers, I was troubled by what I consider the overly, narrowly legalistic, amoral responses of the university presidents.
Here’s some more information in a NY Times report. And just think, there was a time in the early 2000s when I recall newly printed law degrees were finding employment opportunities scares. Now they are out there drumming up business only to find three female presidents being hung out to dry:
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/08/business/dealbook/wilmerhale-penn-harvard-mit-antisemitism-hearing.html?unlocked_article_code=1.E00.7Rco.9IlTmGP88FHa&smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare
Thank you. I’d been interested to know what law firm advised the university presidents whom Rep. Stefanik grilled.
Bob, I HAVE followed this story, including the piece by Michelle Goldberg in the NYT (thanks to Robert for the link), and I am in total agreement with you - Stefanik's setting up and attacking/accusing the 3 presidents was outrageous. She is the one who kept using the word "genocide". And of course , the continuing trauma of the Holocaust has triggered so much reactivity.
Yes, deep breath, please.
Stefanik had every right to introduce the word “genocide”. It was the figurative elephant in the room. By probing the university presidents, she could uncover the way they were thinking about the protests. I’m no fan of Stefanik, but I think her line of questioning exposed shallow thinking on the part of those presidents. They are supposed to be *thought leaders*, not mere administrative functionaries, not arid scholars.
She is a guerrilla with guerrilla tactics.
Michael, I disagree with you, on all points.
I guess we need to leave it there.
I like the idea of taking a collective deep breath, and how about a silent walk around the block while we're at it?
I see the nuance too, and a responsible person would not predict all future circumstances. A rewording could be that I stand by Jewish rights to safety and autonomy. Hate has no place here. I am currently in Germany and they want to make a law that says that anyone who says anything against Israel is hate speech. Recently, the woman who was the subject of the film Unorthodox, who lives in Berlin, said that Germany supports all of the Jews except for ones like her who do not support the Israeli government. If anyone has seen the film, you see that she has had to question her givens and does not want to give that up for Groupthink! I don't blame her. Most of my Israeli friends are very against Netanyahu and are of the sort that would be joining the protests in Israel against him being in office. I believe they have started up again, so even being at war is not stopping it, particularly since many believe this will not be helpful to the hostages still kept by Hamas and whoever else may have taken them. Now European countries are disingenuous in their support of Jews wholesale, because it was the lack of wanting to take in Jews after WWII that led England to send more of them to the settlement they had created in Palestine around the time of WWI.
https://www.britannica.com/place/Palestine/World-War-I-and-after
England was not alone in this decision. However, it did not turn out as it was originally imagined. Everyone wants a place to be safe. The way to make Israel safe for Jews and other inhabitants is to have an acceptance of their existence in Israel, and to have treaties that help them to maintain that. If they want to keep us as allies it helps for them and us to remain democratic countries. Many Israelis have dual citizenship with other countries, and depending on their perceived safety in these other countries they feel more or less safe in Israel. There are generational differences in experiences of Israeli's that make them feel more or less safe. When I checked on my US neighbor's son in Israel since he is 21, she told me he was safely working behind a computer in the military, while her concerns were with the people of Gaza. Another Jewish friend, who is in the USA, has been supporting good friends who are a Palestinian-Thai couple, who are trying to get their daughter out of Palestine to come home. Palestinians want to be heard too. I am someone who supports this ending with a 2 State solution. Friday night, my daughter baked cookies with a friend from Brazil which they took to a Hanukkah party of good friends, which includes US and Israeli Jews, Ukrainians, Vietnamese, Singapore and Azerbaijani friends. There are people in Palestine and Israel who are trying to bring about peace and harmony between the two groups. "The sun rises and sets on the British Empire," has not turned out well for the people of Israel and Palestine, and at least I do not see a British presence in this situation trying to help bring about peace.
Israel is where we may soon be. Most of the citizens don’t support the government, but the government doesn’t care. They have their own radicals who cheat and change laws that are anathema to the majority. God forbid we see ourselves there in less than a year.
Thanks, Linda, for the thoughtful and insightful response. In contrast, the "inciteful" reactions of many are part of the problem. A call for genocide by anyone is abhorrent and should be easy to condemn, but so should the focus on any one aspect of a very complex and longstanding dilemma.
I can only hope that the dust settles quickly on this and we can get back to trying to restore peace and establish a two state solution that everyone can live with. Hamas must go, but so must Netanyahu. Maybe that's the discussion that should be taking place.
Bob, I agree with you - this was political theatre. What bothers me most is Elise Stefanie calling these university presidents out when she supports a man who is a consummate bully, verbally harasses and points a rhetorical weapon at anyone who criticizes or opposes him, has been adjudicated as a rapist and has no problem putting children in cages or separating them from their families. Lastly, I am Jewish and I don’t give a whit what people say so long as it doesn’t become action. It is at that point, it becomes harassment and bullying.
Well said. The reports of Stepanik “relentless in her setting up the presidents with her prosecutorial style” really caught my attention. All too often we read, hear, and see the power driven conduct of leaders or ordinary citizens taking every opportunity to gain advantage regardless of the costs. Now we see that M. Elizabeth Magill has resigned along with the board chair.
Surely few beyond the community of UPenn knew her prior to this past week. What was her career like? How successful was she in her short tenure as president? How did she exemplify the leadership skills we value? She is one more casualty in the many storms we each seem so captured by, often with little understanding or care about the complexity of our humanity and history.
At every new story, at every lost life, at every derailed career, at every future potential ended in chaos and blood my heart aches, cries, and wakes to another day hoping and seeking a better humanity.
I believe we are better than many of these stories or reports of our meanness reflect. I look not to an external god, but to the our personal spirit of shared humanity exalting the quote over the alter of my long ago confirmation, “God is love.”
So many in our Today’s Edition community are showing the way from the author to the many readers who speak truth to power. Thank you.
Thanks, John. I like to think we are part of the better humanity of which you speak. We must remain independent thinkers and strive to be thoughtful, considerate, and protective of each other.
To quote myself (a dangerous move), "As humans, we are endowed with the incomparable ability to think for ourselves. Too many of us succumb to the incomprehensible tendency to avoid doing so." That realization keeps me going.
I agree with you but the students young and frustrated think the 1st Amendment gives them the right to say anything they want.
Donald Trump is intentionally breaking down the First Amendment door with his hatchet of a mouth. We no longer understand the legal lines against "incendiary" speech because that is Trump's stock in trade. Just watch judges struggle mightily to keep this buckling guardrail in place against him. (AKA gag orders) No wonder students are confused about what is legal, protected speech -- and what isn't. Calling for mass murder of any group clearly, to my mind, meets the illegal test. Period. Robert makes this obvious and unassailable point continuously; what is there left to discuss?
There not confused. They have grown up with people saying whatever they want without accountability
Agreed & I would argue it's true for most of us. Sadly, another example of society's corrosion due to the relentless disinformation & moral affronts of the extremist right.
I would add the extremist left. Both are problems.
Sadly there's truth in this Ed
I agree, even though I'm pretty far left. For too many people, their politics is their religion, and they fail to think about it, to question what they believe, and instead, they just go along with whatever their group seems to think.
Thank the Gods that my parents, grandparents, aunties and uncles taught us right from wrong, spent time with us and modeled right action, kindness, and how to think critically… Doing the right thing isn’t always easy but it’s always as plain as the nose on my face. As Steven says many young’s have grown up without the luxury of accountability or a good sound talking to.
I thank my parents for guiding me to take account and responsibility to recognize right and wrong.
Yet, might I add that most, if not all of my teachers in a public high school and the professors at the State’s only public university taught me critical thinking and expected that I ask questions to embrace the practice of critical thinking and self reflection. For this and more I am proud of Rutgers University.
But some of them ARE confused - if you're speaking about students. Many of them are 18. They are young and may be either uninformed or disinformed. And as you point out, have perhaps been brought up hearing angry discussions about the state of our country and the world. They may yet be unable to distinguish between these arguments and as Bob Morgan says, get to the third thing - which is the truth.
What is that old saying. My mouth gets ahead of my brain sometimes. Best to get them in sync
Good point about Donald Trump, as well as his followers, who have filled the airwaves with onslaughts against the rule of law and institutions that have been revered up to this point. Yet, students need to be taught by the adults in the room, what is appropriate and what is not. Just as Robert is trying to teach all of us, who still need reminders of the appropriateness of what we say.
Agree with you. It's frustrating that university leaders don't seem to know these basic legal fault lines re: protected and unprotected speech.
It isn’t simply a question of legal “fault lines”. It’s a matter of ethics and moral character. On these matters, the university presidents and their defenders have, IMHO, failed abjectly.
"...his hatchet of a mouth."
Excellent metaphor, Sheila.
Thanks -- I liked the visual 😵💫
“Calling for mass murder of any group clearly, to my mind, meets the illegal test.” —
Narrow legality is not, in my opinion, the sole or appropriate test. These demonstrations occurred in a *university* community, a place where speech should promote and increase understanding and humaneness. Universities are failing in that educational responsibility.
Hatchet of a mouth, incredibly well said
Isn’t it a shame that they don’t look to the President of the United States and do as he does?
What- instead the take there cues from the orange hatchet mouth.
I don’t think many students or the college presidents or even the interrogators have the same understanding of intifada and “ from the river to the sea”. Some interpret these as calls for genocide and others as standing with the oppressed against the occupiers. It is a big stretch to say that anyone who says this is calling for the killing of all Jews.
The schools, and their administrators are in a bind when those who say those are calls for genocide try to push them into a position of needing to accept that the students meant that and therefore need to be punished, perhaps expelled, lose scholarships, and have it in their records that they are virulent anti-Semites.
In my opinion the educators response is to have further education and the answer that was given by the Harvard president that context is important was the right answer.
There are writers who explained why the interrogator was the villain in this approach to how to deal with antisemitism on campus. I think they are correct. Banning the words in every context and assuming every person who says those phrases needs to be punished is a moral and legal overreaction and will lead to more not less harm.
Over doing it, whether by the IDF or the college administration, is the way to perpetuate and feed the conflict. It is not a way to a solution.
My fear is that the GQP will now justify further oversight of selected universities for all kinds of made-up reasons. And by the way, this kind of speech is happening everywhere, not just elite universities. The GQP attacks those in particular because they pretend that “elites” are the problem. Most of these horrid politicians (Stefanik included) attended “elite” universities. Why did they go there? Did they attack the universities they attended at the time? I am certain that anti-semitism is going on at the University of Florida as well as lots of other regular, state schoools. Why not hold a committee hearing about anti-semitism on college campuses in general? Because that doesn’t fit the MAGA narrative. And it gives them more fuel to try to make all universities experiments in right-wing education!!!!!! I also wonder if three white men had been the university presidents, would big bad Stefanik treat them with the disdain and manufactured fury that she did with these women. They will now all pay a price, and the MAGA voters can tell themselves that elite universities are “indoctrinating” their students to be anti-Semitic. Nothing could be further from the truth.
I am in complete agreement with you, DK. Stefanik is the one who repeatedly used the word "genocide". Thank you for spelling out that this is an interpretation of the word "intifada" and the phrase "from the river to the sea".
I believe that Stefanik is correct. Otherwise there was No Insurrection on January 6. Words matter.
The response on a college campus is to have further educational discussions. Not to assume students are set in their views and fully understand the connotations and meaning of “coded” words.
The next question the interrogator was going to ask was “what are you going to do to those students who said “from the river to the sea”? How many have you expelled?”
Is everyone who repeats a slogan because they have a sympathy to a cause calling for the harshest interpretation and needs to be punished the same way? It depends on context, as the Harvard president said, and we should back them. Their job is to weigh things in context.
The context in this case is hate, violence, and intolerance.
Not a place I would be proud to say I attended or would attend.
I have said it before: I have heard Yassar Arafat's chief legal counsel and Imed Moustaffa, the last Syrian ambassador before the US broke off relations. These people's words are dangerous and put angry murderous thoughts into people's heads. Oh yeah...and the Syrians have gassed around a half a million of their own people. That is context.
Stefanik’s use of the word “genocide” was based on HER interpretation of words/ phrases used by students. Her use of the word “genocide” was inflammatory.
Words DO matter - just look at the reactions to her interrogation at the hearing - the fallout for the university presidents.
Oh, please! Doesn’t “genocide” have meaning any more?
Stefanik, is correct???
“Some interpret these as calls for genocide and others as standing with the oppressed against the occupiers. It is a big stretch to say that anyone who says this is calling for the killing of all Jews.” —
Maybe.
Instead of focusing on the hypothetical intent of people who make these chants, why not focus on how they are *received*? To many, especially Jews, the chants are alienating and threatening (talk about “context”!). Alienating, threatening language should havd no place or sanction in a university community.
The congressional investigation (or whatever it was) did not look at how they were received. It was leading to punishing those who said the words as if they were intended to be equivalent to “kill all the Jews”. I don’t believe everyone who said it meant that. Even if one believes all the land should be for Palestinians it is a stretch to say that person wants to kill all Jews and should be handed a severe punishment by his educational institution.
I can’t speculate about the intent, perhaps mindless, of chanting “From the river to the sea”. But the *effect* is what counts. Shouting “fire!” in a crowded theatre is punishable even if the shouter only thought it was a funny prank. Similarly, using alienating, threatening language (even mindlessly) should be condemned if not punished.
The university presidents didn’t even condemn the language.
And they call themselves “educators”?
Here's a different perspective from Jennifer Rubin
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/12/09/university-presidents-antisemitism/
Thanks for drawing attention to Rubin’s brilliant,, clear-thinking article!
You are most welcome!
Young people are an entitled bunch and many of them see the ‘rights’ as their’s for the taking. They don’t seem to take note the of all the responsibilities of being a citizen, they don’t act like people who realize those rights were hard fought for. Sorry (not sorry), you can’t say just anything you want.
The real issue is look at Trump and imagine he is a role model for many youth who believe they can say anything true or false and attack and tear down the system. Former presidents did it why can’t I ?
Yes, these students are young and may not have the skills yet to hold two thoughts in their minds at the same time. Learning to express oneself thoughtfully is part of what college is for, and many are not good at it yet. The adults in the college classrooms where the Middle East is being discussed must help these young people see that there is terrible suffering on both sides of this conflict.
If you’re correct, America’s “educational system” is a terrible failure. These are students at three of America’s top universities.
They should be expected to know better, and so should their professors.
Apparently many think the 1st Amendment gives the right to say anything, Mr. Trump and many members of Congress certainly do. However disturbing, it is not surprising that racism, anti-semitism and so many other forms of hate are freely and dangerously expressed on university campuses. As violence as well was tolerated on January 6 and nearly daily on our streets, shops, schools and in homes, we, as a nation, we should expect youngsters to follow their elders.
In line with your thoughts: today’s Washington Post E.J.Dionne column
I support your newsletter unconditionally. You are a brilliant, empathetic, clarifying voice that everyone in America needs to hear loud and clearly. Thank you.
Robert and Jill,
Thank you for all of your amazing work and dedication to keep this newsletter going. It has grown a community, and we will not lose our core even if there are heated arguments here.
For some inspiration, please look at this great sculpture that depicts the generational struggle for democracy. That’s what we’re all about here. The sculpture I’m referencing is “Government of the People” by the Jewish immigrant artist Jacques Lipchitz. Here’s a link to some views of that sculpture and its background story. I’ve also posted this llnk to the Heather Cox Richardson blog because art like this has the power to lift us up. Your newsletter lifts us up as does Heather’s.
https://www.associationforpublicart.org/artwork/government-of-the-people/
That noise you hear, Gary, is me behind you cheering on your free speech!
Gary, I'd forgotten about this sculpture. Thanks for the poignant reminder!
Thank you for this link. What an awesome work of art!
Forever fan of Today's Edition Newsletter and Robert & Jill Hubbell.
Me too, Lynell!
I agree, Lynell. I read some other newsletters, and there is so much argumentative discourse, including repulsive personal insults to other commenters, that I come here to find relief from that. I think that overall people here are respectful of each other; but I did look through the comments on Robert’s Thursday, newsletter late in the day. I could see why he shut down the discourse. It was getting a little bit ugly.
Thanks, Janet. Not sure I will go back and read what was being said. I trust Robert's and your analysis.
I am a Robert and Jill fan as well! You all have been a source of hope (and I do have a lot) these last years. Thank you!
And now, fellow, activists, I could use help. You have likely read that late last night, the Texas Supreme Court essentially blocked a court ordered permission for a pregnant woman here to access and abortion for health reasons, per her doctor's recommendation. Unbelievable. Non-Texans especially, could you take a minute to contact a Texas newspaper to let them know the rest of the country is watching as Texas does this to one of its own. We have seen recently that feedback to media is effective--we need more. Please also let me know of any other Texas media contacts. Thank you.
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Thank you so much for posting this! I have sent to them all listed. He is aware how important time is in this situation. It is about the control...
Yes. I think it's also ironic that he himself, who has been indicted for years, has managed to delay his trial for years. I have been told by others more knowledgeable than me that this is why we need two healthy, functioning parties--in Texas, we do not have that.
Done! Thanks for the contact info.
Thank you so much. Our media and our corporations here really need to step up--our R state leaders routinely ignore opinions shared by 80% of us. Not sure where else to turn, frankly.
Speaking of Hunter Biden, James Comer has managed to prove to the world that exists beyond the halls of GOP leadership of the House, that the Chairman of the House Oversight Committee and the representative of KY's 1st District is, not to put too fine a point on it, an idiot. The US Congress is ill served by blowhards wantonly neglecting their duty to pass constructive legislation and pass a budget to avoid the next debt crisis. To put icing on the cake, it strikes me that the dogged pursuit of Hunter Biden is remarkably un-Christian for such a pious bunch.
The over-sized punishment of Hunter Biden is the MAGAts attempt to throw dirt on Biden's campaign. The R's are (as usual) are doing precisely what they continuously accuse the Biden administration of doing. They refuse to recognize that every accusation that they level is a confession of guilt.
Call it what it what it is “
Revenge Politics.
Yes. A reminder: 45 stating “I am your retribution” during a recent rally.
And of course ----- it's trying desperately to draw a false equivalence between Biden's son and Trump's overt corruption. A big difference being: Hunter Biden will never be president.
Hunter Biden was NEVER a member of his father's administration--unlike the Trump kids. Why are THEY getting a free pass?
An excellent point. Very, very little outrage or discussion or examination of Jared Kushner getting a gigantic gift from the Saudis approximately immediately after serving in the White House. The hypocrisy of Gym Jordan and James Comer with the tacit support of Mike Johnson is revolting. Appalling. Typical. Thank you Fox.
Comer actually says the charges against Hunter Biden are petty and frivolous, IMO. Watch it again -- he makes Abbe Lowell's case for him.
So does that mean he's going to close down the investigation? I think not. The point isn't justice. It's vengeance. And clicks on Fox.
Yep -- Comer calls the gun charges and not paying taxes "the least little thing(s)". Seriously!
Unfortunately his constituents don’t agree with your assessment
Well.... at least his paymasters don't
Nah! Faux piety!
Thank you Pam Smith and Dean Gavney! My 3 cents on Biden ala Substack:
Imagine a doctor tells you definitively that you have only 5 more years to live. At best. There’s nothing major wrong with you, you’re feeling pretty good, but statistically, and here again, definitively, you’ll be gone in 5 years.
Where do you go in your mind? For many seniors, even those of us in relatively good health, this is a possibility we live with, at least rattling in the back of our minds, every day. Of course, there are those who will decide simply to enjoy themselves by reading all those books they haven’t gotten to yet, or play as much golf as humanly possible. And why not? Our country tells us we are close to the end of the road. We’ve made our mark and done our time. Move over and let the next generation take their turn. May as well hang it up before it gets embarrassing. But what if you have only that long to literally save the world’s strongest and most powerful Democracy from the vicious narcissistic bully chomping at the bit to destroy it? And you are, for the moment, the person with the position, requisite skills, experience, relevant history and social capital to effectively fight back?
What if you are Joe Biden? It’s one thing to step aside and hand over the reins to…who? That’s a problem. Anyone younger you can name is going to be untested, unappealing to some crucial constituency, and lacking at least some of the vital resources just listed, critical in facing down Democracy’s demise. IMHO Biden has no choice but to press on in a contest determined to push him aside because the stakes are simply too high for him not to. Here’s the thing about age that so many people in this country do not understand. Reduced time left can become an engine. It can focus a person on using everything they have to achieve the mission. The periphery falls away, clarity brings its own energy, vision and thrust. Of course, possible jail time can also focus an elder on staying out of it. Even if he brings down our entire nation in the process. I’m not worried about Joe Biden in a second term. I worry about Americans wringing their hands over one man’s wrinkles when they should be focused on the other guy’s fangs.
"I'm not worried about Joe Biden in a second term. I worry about Americans wringing their hands over one man's wrinkles when they should be focused on the other guys fangs." 💥💯
Please note: my comment has to do with ensuring that our comment section stays collegial and supportive, and that it does not descend into divisive subjects that distract us from fighting for democracy. I have an entirely different take on the issue of Biden's age, just not wanting to present my viewpoints on a specific issue, in the context of how to discuss specific issues!
Well said 🤗 Indeed, hand the reins to....? We need all the younguns these days in their positions as governors, Senators, Representatives, state attorneys general, state legislators, mayors, county/city officials to keep democracy going in their capacities so what President Biden is doing is for not for naught. Wrinkles and all.
This is a minor point, but: “statistically, and here again, definitively, you’ll be gone in 5 years” is generally mathematical nonsense. Statistics can predict the overall *odds*, but it does not make definitive statements.
"To be clear, I would support the same result for a call for genocide directed at any group." I feel exactly the same way. I think of what happened in Rwanda, with the genocide of the Tutsis. Is it REALLY OK to shout in favor of killing any group of human beings? My answer: absolutely not.
Yet, people make a difference when it comes to Jews.
Thank you. Civility seems, sadly, to be underrated these days.
University campuses should be places for discussion of ideas. Calling for a genocide of Jews or any other group, is not discussion of the idea of genocide, it is calling on people to kill others, to break the sixth commandment. If you live your life according to the precept of “do unto others, as you would have others do unto you“ genocide could never be an option. I would have hoped that any university president would have denied a genocide of any group of people existing on the Earth.
Thoughts precede action.
Robert, you are the very best and I am extremely happy being in your company. I think yesterday’s newsletter ignited me and perhaps I went over the cliff’s edge. I am just a strong women’s advocate and between Hamas’ brutality against women and the three female presidents, I couldn’t help myself. I hope I had made sense in my babble-rousing.
Watching Comer is spellbounding! He has to be the dumbest guy from Kentucky. According to Wikipedia, Comer got a BS degree in Agriculture. My BS degree stands for Bachelor’s of Science. His must stand for BullShit.
Didn't have you in mind when i wrote yesterday' s comment.
Whew!
Just thinking what is stated in the last sentence! Analysis of bovine excrement was not part of his curriculum!
As to your monitoring the comments section, well stated!
I am uneasy with lengthy, emphasis lengthy, comments from those who also have a substack newsletter! It has the appearance of the equivalent of ‘photo bombing’!
Suggestion make your point then link your newsletter!
Namaste!
I have not posted much recently only because of time. I had several activities that are taking a lot of my brain energy and my time, all with respect to climate change and bringing Biden Administration resources to underserved communities vulnerable to climate disasters. I had no idea people are trolling your (our) comment section.
My own interest in this newsletter is that it gives me support for the issues I am working on, puts me in touch with others so that we can support one another. On other so called progressive Facebook sites I have found that people post with agendas and frame their posts to meet those agendas. Sometimes people post with the express purpose of dividing those of us who are working on progressive, liberal or Democratic issues, and weaken us as we prepare for the 2024 elections. (I think those people are called Trolls)
This site feels different, as it is populated by people who are actually working on things, and not people whose main political activities consist of reading social media, listening to cable news, and posting zingers about MAGA people, as the main way of thinking we are being politically active. (Please read Politics is for Power, by Eitan Hersh)
Anyway, I fully support keeping this site as one that is networking and supportive of like-minded people who wish to inform others of what we are all doing, and sharing perspectives on how to frame issues and work on them.
I am not out to convince anyone to change their point of view. We all appear to understand that we do not all agree on specifics within a particular issue, but we do all support democracy and progressive ideas. We recognize the need to work together despite having some differences of opinion.
The more successful we are with that approach, the more certain people will want to undermine it. One way they do that, of course, is to use what appears to be a progressive idea, and accuse Biden, or progressives, or Democrats, of being anti-whatever that progressive idea is and try to start us fighting with one another.
We obviously see that with some people who are accusing Biden of genocide of the Palestinian people by supporting Israel. We hate to limit free speech, so instead we respond with reason, history, feelings, etc., then we are off to the races.
I had a sinking feeling when Elise Stefanik was interrogating the presidents of universities, and Robert, your comments on that explained my sinking feelings. Here in Florida, there is an all-out assault on liberal thought in colleges and universities. The narrative on Morning Joe is that leftist thought is out of control in colleges and universities. I saw Stefanik's purpose as one to undermine liberalism in universities. She succeeded.
Here in the U.S., we believe in free speech and the First Amendment. If you remember the Nazi march in Skokie, Ill. years ago, and the ACLU fought for their right to have a permit? Many of my Jewish friends stopped donating to the ACLU. Same dilemma: Nazis should not have any platform to spew their hate; Or, If you allow certain groups to be censored, it is going to come right back to your group in the end. I live in Florida, remember?
In Europe some countries do not allow Nazi organizations to exist and shut down Nazi rhetoric. It has not stopped the rise in influence of neo-Nazi and fascist organizing and influence.
I do think that ACTIONS that are hateful, dangerous and destructive should be illegal, and that any speech that exhorts people to act in an illegal way should be criminal. I think trying to shut down racist or antisemitic thought is a mistake and does not work to shut it down.
I think that ACTIONS that are meant to overthrow our democracy should be illegal and those who do it should be held accountable and not be allowed to hold public office. Trying to shut down a discussion of different forms of government and political philosophy is a bad idea and does not work to stop people who are racist or antisemitic from trying to form white nationalist governments.
To be clear, speech that exhorts people to conduct genocide of Jews, or any group of people, in my view is criminal. Hope that clears up any misconception about what constitutes speech protected by the First Amendment, and speech that is not.
In my view, this is the type of discussion we should be having, the pros and cons of shutting down fascist or nazi or white nationalist speech, vs. the importance of the way in which the First Amendment has been interpreted in the U.S.
I fully support your pulling the plug on speech here that has the goal of dividing us so that we stop doing the work, but allowing speech that is meant to fully air differing viewpoints on our issues.
Why is a call for the genocide of Jews not "speech that exhorts people to act in an illegal way?"
It is. I did not mean to state otherwise. I just edited my comment above hopefully to clarify.
Thank you Robert. You are such a beacon of good will and good sense.
Regarding the university presidents. I think the problem is that there is disagreement on what calling for genocide means in this case. Because of successive Israeli governments’ political campaigns to elide being Jewish with being Zionist, many people in the US now think that disagreeing with Zionism is antisemitic and or potentially genocidal speech. Given the variety of opinions of Jews around the globe, that is clearly a misuse of the term genocide and also a misuse in terms of the legal definition. Calling for the explicit destruction of all people belonging to an ethnic or religious group in the definition of genocide. Ie saying all Jews have to die is genocidal, calling for the end of Israel is not necessarily. I think the university leaders would have been much better served had they made those distinctions, in which case they could have clearly stated that genocidal talk is unacceptable, even on a university campus.
Yes, Thank you. I think this is fundamental. Stefanik and the entire right-wing ecosystem have cynically taken a very complex debate and turned it into a caricature that they are easily and effectively using to further undermine “liberalism” and faith in liberal institutions, democrats, democracy, and everything else that they despise. And they can’t believe their good fortune that so many otherwise reasonable people in the center are losing their minds by drinking their poisonous cool-aide.
We, all of us, need to help people back from this this insidious drink, this ugly brink. Thankfully, we have Robert in the leadership of such efforts!
Like: I think the university leaders would have been much better served had they made those distinctions
But the fact that presidents of top universities could not bring themselves to make those distinctions is deeply troubling. They are not being leaders.
“Calling for the explicit destruction of all people belonging to an ethnic or religious group in the definition of genocide. Ie saying all Jews have to die is genocidal, calling for the end of Israel is not necessarily.” –
How so? What would become of Israelis if their nation were to come to an end? How would their nation be ended? I think you may be splitting straws.
Robert, I apologize for commenting on something that occurred last Tuesday December 5th, but I've been so swamped by trying to pull together a "post retirement" radio show, that I just couldn't focus on commenting. The show still isn't done, but I feel I can't just remain silent. That said, here goes:
I was shocked when I heard on the Tuesday December 5th edition of the PBS Newshour that President Biden stated, "If Trump wasn't running, I'm not sure I would be running. We cannot let him win." In other words, the president wants to protect the nation from Trump. I must admit that I was disappointed that, as far as I could tell, you didn't discuss this statement. It seems to me that the statement implies that deep down, President Biden would prefer to retire, rather than be a candidate for re-election in 2024. A number of months ago, I had thoughts that President Biden might decide not to run and announce that decision sometime before the campaigns began in earnest. Considering his Tuesday statement, I find it hard to picture him waging a vigorous campaign. I worry that he just doesn't have the juice for it. If not Joe Biden, then who? Kamala Harris? I'm not sure. Gavin Newsom? It seems to me that he would be a strong candidate, but I've been told he was asked and declined. I have to confess, this situation fills me with angst. Am I out in left field? I would greatly appreciate your thoughts on this.
He is a great president, and he will not abandon America when needed. There is no one else who could run and win, or do what is needed in such a difficult historical moment. What I heard in this statement was he acknowledges worries about him, and also knows he is needed and can’t drop the ball. Love him!
My thoughts exactly, Janice. Thanks!
I wish that, like President Biden, Democratic members of Congress would hang on, rather than retiring or refusing to run for re-election, at least until we get the ship turned around and headed in the right direction. It may be a sacrifice, but the fewer Senate and Congressional seats we have to worry about, the better. Let Republicans give up and go home—I am fine with that!!!😉
Agreed, all in favor of letting the new leaders emerge, but not where there is no clear Dem replacement.
When Biden stated, "If Trump wasn't running, I'm not sure I would be running. We cannot let him win,"I was grateful, not disappointed. We are years into unprecedented times, dealing with a series of unprecedented threats, which are all connected to Trump. To realize the magnitude, reach and breadth of the threat of a second Trump presidency is basic honesty. And for Biden to understand that he, Biden, is uniquely situated by skills, connections, history and performance in his first presidential term, to continue to strengthen our democracy, is a statement of fact.
Pam Smith, I’m with you 100%. Rather than make me doubt Joe Biden, it made me admire him more. He’s needed, he wishes that wasn't so, but he’ll answer the call. What is more patriotic than that?
Exactly. Thank you. We should all read and re-read and spread the fact that Biden is probably the most effective presidents in the last 50 years. We need him now. I am honestly tired of hearing democrats or left leaning voters bring up the age issue over and over again, ruminating and saying to others Biden is “too old”. To my friends and acquaintances who are doing this - I listen, then I tell them if they want to stop a dictatorship in America, to get behind Biden, tell people all that he is doing/has done as president, how incredible he is, that he has an amazing team behind him, and the V.P. Is being trained and like her or not, is ready for the job. Say: I’m behind Joe 100%. That’s what we can do.
To respond to myself - I NEVER question his age to other voters. I shout his praises to the winds!
Kamala Harris was unsuccessful as a candidate for president. She dropped out before the first primary due to lack of support. Gavin Newsom is the governor of the most liberal state in the union. He would not sell in swing states (I believe).
To your question, I didn't comment on Biden's statement because it seems like "inside baseball" to me. He's running. Triangulating his inner motivations is, to me, just another way of implying he is not up for the job. I am fifteen years younger than Biden and couldn't keep up with his schedule. I can tell I am not as sharp as I was 15 years ago. Same is true for everyone.
My only comments on his statement are (a) I wish he wouldn't have said it, but that's Joe being genuine and true to who he is; and (b) shame on the Democrat who attended a private fundraiser and immediately repeated the comment to the press.
I think the discussion over Biden's age is a release for expressing anxiety that Trump may win. if it wasn't his age, it would be center-left politics, or his family (oh, wait, they are trying that already), his treatment of Anita Hill, etc. etc. I think it is a manufactured worry. By every objective measure Biden's age is not an impediment.
Wouldn't any sane person think twice about running for president? My take is that Joe Biden is the sort of person who shares his thoughts. As a political strategy, not a great idea. But he wins me over on a regular basis because he reveals his humanity - rather than trying to be a guy wearing an "Iron Man" suit spewing all sorts of tough sounding nonsense.
I am with Joe until Joe says he is retiring. And if or when he does step away, I am also VERY confident that the Democratic bench of talent is very deep. I could list a dozen or two, but I am now conscious of Robert's desire to keep these comments concise :)
Your reading too much in to his comment and the media jumped all over it. I think what he meant was he is the best person to defeat Trump and he knows that it’s too late to find another candidate and his job is now to save Democracy from disaster a job he will accept.