There was little surprising in the details of the indictment. And yet, somehow this time it feels different. Certainly the crimes are more serious. But it's not just that. There is a sense that this time the violation is personal to us individually. Far less abstract than tax evasion or mishandling of documents, it feels like he has taken something valuable from each of us.
The feeling I have today is very much like what I felt once many years ago. On that day, I came home to find the front door standing open. Someone had broken in, ransacked the house and taken a few valuables and a brief case containing some personal papers. The papers, while important to me, were not really irreplaceable. But what was irreplaceable was the sense that my home was safe and secure. The threshold between my personal life and my public life had been violated.
Throughout all of our lifetimes, America's democracy has felt safe and secure. Despite its many failings, there has always been the reassuring sense that whatever outrages may be perpetrated by any of our elected officials, an opportunity to vote the scoundrels out is always on the horizon. Yes, their replacements may turn out to be scoundrels as well. But they too will soon need to face the voters' judgment.
Reading this indictment we learn that our democratic home has been ransacked by the one indidual we entrusted to be ultimately responsible for its safety and security. No longer do we enjoy the comfort of knowing that there will always be another election where our votes will be counted and our voices heard.
For those who are politically active, even if that activism extends no further than registering and voting, the crimes Donald Trump committed are a personal affront, a form of theft. He has attempted to rob from us our rightful place in the democratic order of this republic.
While he failed in his attempted robbery, Mr. Trump has inflicted a grievous wound to our faith in that order. It is a wound that may never heal.
Jerry, you are so on point. Each of us have had our rights violated which is why we need to have a camera in the courtroom once the trial begins. C-SPAN, I think, would be the best solution.
Doris Kearns Goodwin said this exact same thing yesterday on CNN. She feels that if the nation can watch the trial in real time and not have it processed and altered by the alt right media maybe people will see truth in action. She said we have to have hope and that in 1860 when Lincoln had turmoil on his hands “public sentiment must come around or the country won’t be able to save democracy. “. Paraphrasing here!
Public sentiment will never change if people watch media that alters the truth.
Not just the alt right - the mainstream media (here's looking at you, CNN and MSNBC) have fed us trump since he rode down that escalator. I say C-Span only.
Shouldn’t Fox and News Max face charges for their role in broadcasting this lie and supporting Trumps efforts to overturn the election? It’s no wonder Trumps followers believe the election process was corrupted when the news service they watch tells viewers it was. This will never end if news services are allowed to alter the truth and deliver lies daily to their viewers and readers.
Yes, we must get people to move away from the outrageous misinformation and flat out lies promoted by right wing media (maybe some on the left?). Here’s the good news. The following link will take you to a recent report on the growing efforts to provide local news with a positive approach:
Here’s an excerpt from the article. “Fortunately, there is a building trend toward civic journalism, coverage of local news stories in a way that informs the public about important matters and encourages them to get involved. As presented by several authors in the most recent edition of the National Civic Review, linked in this newsletter, these stories promote and enhance civic engagement to address issues like poverty, education and health, not simply the latest negative news item.
One source of this trend is Solutions Journalism. Founded in 2013 by journalists David Bornstein, Courtney E. Martin, and Tina Rosenberg, Solutions Journalism is a network of journalists and news organizations around the world that generate stories about responses to social problems. The group’s website now has “over 15,200 solution stories produced by 8,700 journalists and 1,900 news outlets from 89 countries.”
Yes, we must get people to move away from the outrageous misinformation and flat out lies promoted by right wing media (maybe some on the left?). Here’s the good news. The following link will take you to a recent report on the growing efforts to provide local news with a positive approach:
Here’s an excerpt from the article. “Fortunately, there is a building trend toward civic journalism, coverage of local news stories in a way that informs the public about important matters and encourages them to get involved. As presented by several authors in the most recent edition of the National Civic Review, linked in this newsletter, these stories promote and enhance civic engagement to address issues like poverty, education and health, not simply the latest negative news item.
One source of this trend is Solutions Journalism. Founded in 2013 by journalists David Bornstein, Courtney E. Martin, and Tina Rosenberg, Solutions Journalism is a network of journalists and news organizations around the world that generate stories about responses to social problems. The group’s website now has “over 15,200 solution stories produced by 8,700 journalists and 1,900 news outlets from 89 countries.”
I'm not sure it didn't make a difference. It made a big difference to me seeing lawmakers discuss January 6 in a respectful manner. I was particularly impressed by Bennie Thompson's chairmanship of the committee. After years of Trump's blathering and grandstanding, it made me proud to see legislators who actually discussed evidence normally. It restored somewhat my faith in government.
We must all insist that there be a camera in the J6 and MAL courtrooms. TFG tried to steal the most important right under our constitution, the right to vote and to have our vote count! Is anyone mounting a campaign to insist that this happens?
Thanks. So did I. And I just did it again. Here is what I said: It is absolutely essential for we, the people, to see the federal trials of Donald J. Trump regarding both his retention of top secret documents, the Mar a Logo case, and his alleged coup efforts, the Jan 6 case. These are two of the most important trials in our nation's history. We have the technology to televise these proceedings. This can be done in non intrusive ways. It can be done without placing any individuals -- attorneys, witnesses, jurors -- in jeopardy. And it must be done to instill confidence in the fairness of these proceedings. We, the people, must not be forced to judge these proceedings through the eyes and minds (biases) of commentators. Failure to allow the televising of these proceedings will further erode the confidence we, the people, have in our judicial proceedings.
Well said Alan! While the jury will decide the verdict, the citizens of our republic will decide who they vote for in November 2024. Millions will be able to witness in real time the unfiltered truth.
Thank you, Alan, for saying what needs to be said so accurately and succinctly. I just wrote to the Supreme Court and used your words, if you don't mind. I couldn't have said it better myself.
I believe the magnitude of the importance of the J6 case dictates that there be a camera in the courtroom. The proceedings would then be available for all to judge. The George Floyd trial is a case in point.
Jerry, this paragraph “Reading this indictment we learn that our democratic home has been ransacked by the one indidual we entrusted to be ultimately responsible for its safety and security. No longer do we enjoy the comfort of knowing that there will always be another election where our votes will be counted and our voices heard.” says it all. I’ve been trying to articulate the feeling that I’ve had since J-6, and this is it. Thank you.
Exactly! This revered country of ours has been a safe place to so many, including my Belgian mother who came to this country as a “war bride” in 1948. She loved this country and believed in the security it provided her, for the rest of her life. She passed in 2015. I can’t imagine what would have been her reaction to the destruction of our democracy by tRump and his henchmen had she lived to see what unfolded in the years following her death.
I, too, could not sleep at night while Trump was in office and for as long as his foul and lying mouth is still being heard. I fear for our children and future generations until some semblance of law and order replace the chaos created by tRump. This recent indictment is like seeing the light at the end of the tunnel.
I remember how affronted and repulsed I felt about the George W Bush presidency and my horror at the invasion of Iraq. The Trump presidency reminds me that things can always be worse. Best not to forget that and keep leaning hard into manifesting what America stands for. We are still loved all over the world for it.
Thank-you, Jerry. Your words are my own reactions on that Jan. 6th day. I was horrified to have the day feel just like a break-in of my home years ago had felt.. but somehow worse. This time the perpetrator roams freely..thus far! But the anger and fear that dwells in me also fuels my activism.
J6 felt like a terrorist attack to me and the person responsible for it is still terrorizing our country. He needs to finally face the consequences for his actions in his destructive life and do some hard time in prison. If he “skates” on this, as my good friend would say, then we have lost our status as a nation governed by the rule of law; no less than the entire world will be damaged by that.
It was a terrorist attack. And he’s at it again with his threatening social media posts. I am so weary of living under this level of chaos, willful ignorance, and fear.
Colleen, on point with "willful" ignorance...I think the cognitive dissonance is what troubles me the most. Its scary that so many turn a blind eye because of authoritarian belief structures that they are willing to walk straight into a trap that will destroy our very young democracy. And he has been cashing in on it. He has found the root of our weakness already crippled by corporate control and lobbyists "greed" turned against the good of our people, and our planet. He has created the foundation for a civil war.
We need to rid ourselves of these monsters, which is what they are. Why so many people out there believed his lies still astounds me. And they believe them still. It's as sad as it is dangerous. Having TFG still roaming around is not good.
Susan, it strikes me as very sad, too, that his supporters are such die-hard fans, when I am sure he does not care about them one twit. Yet he is all too happy to take their money even thought they probably cannot afford it. Shaking my head.
Imagine the thief who broke into your home lying and saying he had a right to break into your home because you had something he wanted. That's basically shat tRump is doing.
Like you I feel violated by Trump & Co’s J6 actions. But I realize after reading your comment that I also feel a deep sense of abuse. Our President takes an oath to protect and serve our democracy, and instead DJT did everything to protect and serve HIS self interests, trampling on our democratic rights. What’s worse, the abuse or the fact that the abuse is being inflicted by the very person you expected to take care of you? Perhaps the latter.
Yes! Abused and violated. That’s exactly how I felt during the pandemic. I never liked TFG. He was brash, boorish and arrogant. Then, he put my family in danger with flagrant disregard. From the tossing out of the pandemic playbook to the missing and nonexistent PPE. We had to watch in horror as he flew all over our country to hold his campaign rallies / twisted comedy tour when it was still not safe. Instead of being a leader and a comfort to the American people at a time of disaster, he put his own selfish needs above all. He endangered all of us when he was gathering crowds and turning his CULTivated minions into vectors. We all have PTSD after his residency. The only thing we have now is our ability to vote, and make sure he and his Merry band of deplorable does not destroy our democracy.
Susan, your use of the word "abuse" rings loud and clear with me. And, the abuse is continuing....witness the threats DT continues to shout at anyone who contradicts him...basically at the world. He needs to be silenced, somehow.
Yes, he does. He's at it again by threatening Jack Smith. That is who he is and how he makes his way in the world. And some people lap it up. That is the part that really distresses me. When Obama/Biden was in office I often thought about how lucky young people were to have leaders they could look up to. How quickly that changed with TFG. Let's turn this around.
Having been raised by narcissistic parents (both), I can assure you, we have, as a country, been subjected to physiological abuse. The gaslighting, the lying, the constant chaos, the turning things around and shaming us while denying what he has done. All in the playbook.
Thank you for raising this point Posey, for I feel what you say is true. Once we get past all his criminal trials, what can we do about this? Would it be possible to get a class action civil suit against him? What about all the families he has torn apart with his spewing of all that hatred? It seems there should be some recourse for what he has done to us, as individuals of this nation.
Trump is an abusive person. After we elected Biden and he was no longer in office I felt I had some idea of how people in abusive relationships feel. Once you are free of the abuser you certainly don't want to go back. We can't afford to be frightened, but we do need to work together and not let ourselves become further divided. Reading TFG's words throughout this indictment made me realize just how profoundly he twisted the truth to make his followers believe him.
You are so right, Jerry! Having this man as President robbed us of our pride in our country, our pride as American citizens, striking at the heart of our individual identities and ideals. His unseemly obsession with trying to cling to the tendrils of power with clearly illegal acts has intensified our loss. This J6 indictment, to me at least, restores my faith that in this country the system works, laws work. It’s ordinary citizens on a grand jury propelling this.
Jerry, perfectly said. For those paying attention to the news, the indictment will not offer many new facts. But it reinforced for me exactly what you described. The days when I could live my life secure in the belief that the bigger picture is being take care by good people in government are long gone. And, of course, it may not be repaired in my lifetime.
I hope Trump is tried and a verdict reached before the 2024 election. That may be difficult, and of course it does little to change the minds of the Trump cult. I really fear we are going to *go through some things*. But I don’t think there’s an alternative to going through it. It just is.
Glad to have found this community of like-minded patriots.
“The days when I could live my life secure in the belief that the bigger picture is being take care by good people in government are long gone.“. I so appreciate these words. Such a big overlooked loss…. I’m so very sad for my young adult kids and wanting to find hope. How do we talk to reasonable Republicans among us??? I am trying desperately to understand this and surprised there isn’t more discussion about how to actually try to talk to these critical voters.
Thank you. I am not sure that we can talk to MAGA voters or convince them in a single conversation, but I’m no expert. A friend has long (over the course of months) conversations in small increments with the MAGA voters she knows. Mostly, I still just try to be civil. We have to keep trying to win elections at all levels and perhaps the fever will burn out over time. I’m 66 and don’t think I will see the end of this in my lifetime.
Jerry, you articulate for me how I’ve been feeling throughout this ordeal. I phone banked, wrote postcards, and of course voted early in 2020. Yet I felt robbed every time the Defendant spoke lies about the election. The fact that the indictment so clearly and succinctly addresses this, especially in the last charge of disregarding voters, made me feel our democracy matters. Laws matter.
Exactly. He has harmed every citizen of this country no matter what their affiliation. For this reason, we must come together on November 5, 2024, to show the world how people in democracies keep their country safe from wannabe dictators quietly and legally. This is not just Jack Smith's burden. It is our duty to the founders and to the citizens who have defended the United States of America for over 200 years whenever it was threatened.
Jerry, this is an excellent observation, brought home by your personal experience. Thanks so much for that perspective.
As I noted in another comment about the incredible power of the final sentence in the indictment, "...Donald J. Trump, did knowingly combine, conspire, confederate, and agree with co-conspirators, known and unknown to the Grand Jury, to injure, oppress, threaten, and intimidate one or more persons in the free exercise and enjoyment of a right and privilege secured to them by the Constitution and laws of the United States -- that is, the right to vote, and to have one's vote counted," the reason it's so powerful is that it's personal to every one of us. Like your experience above, that closing statement strikes a visceral chord.
I harken back to the plea deal cut by prosecutors and Spiro Agnew in 1973, where rather than face prison for multiple bribery charges, he resigned his Vice-Presidency, paid a fine, and retired to private life...forever, as a condition of his plea. Now Jack Smith, with his two federal indictments, has tRump wrapped up and virtually fitted for an orange jumpsuit, and there may be a window of opportunity in the months ahead for an "Agnew deal" to present itself, either as a proffer or prosecutorial initiative. It all depends on several interacting political factors, of course, but I'm not ruling out such a possibility...just saying.
In these days of social media and the numbers of far-right "news" media outlets -- a far cry from what was available during Agnew's time -- an "Agnew deal" would be near-meaningless for Trump. The notion of his "retiring to private life" would not compute, to the man... and his continuous presence in the collective discourse would only keep alive his power to foment chaos and to abuse. I trust that Jack Smith is all too aware of that danger. That said, it becomes more and more incumbent on us, the voters, to ensure that a Republican is not put into the Presidency in 2024, so that a pardon would not come from that office, either.
Isn't there a vacant island somewhere to send him for all his remaining days? Y'know, like Napoleon was sent to St. Helen's? Without communication services but with food (hamburders) delivered by drones. See ya later, dictator!
That would be a good outcome, but I seriously doubt that TFG would go for that. He loves the drama, the chaos, the spotlight, even if it's only for negative attention. He and his ilk fall clearly into the Buddhist concept of "hungry ghosts." There will never be enough drama and chaos for this damaged man and his supporters.
Lance, With the damage tRump has done to us and our country he does not deserve an "Agnew deal". I very much doubt Jack Smith would even entertain such a plea. The world will be watching the trial and our standing in the world is also on trial.
So well said. Yes, he, and his cohorts, have undermined the very foundations of our society so that we no longer have any sense of security. He needs to be held accountable and never be allowed to hold public office again.
Superb analysis. You put into words what many of us feel but had trouble articulating. We, too, have had a house break in and your description is spot on. Thank you.
I just read the indictment. It’s operatic! What a pathetic and scary group of power-hungry yahoos. The last phrase of the last line (ironically pg 45) brought me to tears: “…DONALD J. TRUMP,
did knowingly combine, conspire, confederate, and agree with co-conspirators, known and
unknown to the Grand Jury, to injure, oppress, threaten, and intimidate one or more persons in the free exercise and enjoyment of a right and privilege secured to them by the Constitution and laws of the United States—that is, the right to vote, and to have one’s vote counted.” Clean and clear, “ the right to vote, and to have one’s vote counted.”✌️🇺🇸💙
The crazy making thing of it is that what he says and does is right out in the open but obvious truth no longer holds sway in our country thanks to Fox and the Tepublican party. (Typo, but I’ll leave it.)
I read it today and value the clarity and structure of the document. I've never read an indictment in my life, so I've no idea if this is normal or just particularly well done.
Also, it read like a movie script and that writers are busy creating in real time.
I think we knew he would violate his release conditions but he did it in less than 24 hours. He cannot keep his piehole shut!!! Bring it judge Chutkin!!!!
I read Joyce's comments on this and heard commentary last night suggesting that the prosecutors and judge should not rise to the bait. It's clear that TFG is a master baiter [sic] and that he's trying to provoke something. I agree with Joyce that he should be forced to show cause, but he should be dragged into court in DC and/or televised when he does so. He should be advised that any further violations will result in house arrest, an ankle bracelet, and no TV, telephone, or internet.
This makes so much sense, thank you. I posted a question about how long it would take to revoke bond, but I like the televised appearance to show cause, followed by the house arrest/ media blackout!
Not holding him to account for fear of delays is playing directly into his hands, allowing him to continue to act with complete impunity.
I have a lot of respect for Joyce, but I don't agree with her take on this. It is way past time for immediate consequences. At the very least, he should be held in contempt of court. Better still, new and separate proceedings should be commenced against him for jury tampering and/or witness intimidation.
IOW there must surely be ways to hold him accountable that don't give him exactly what he wants (delay, delay and more delay).
Good point about contempt of court. I wonder of that could be imposed with a substantial fine for each violation. The judge has been very tough on J6 defendants so I think we will see some mechanism that will progress in severity as a continues to violate. Hoping anyway.
I feel his phone should be taken from him and he should not be allowed to use the phone or computer or at least not on sites we can about what he wants to. And anyone doing it for him would be in contempt of court also.
I like this idea, but it kind of makes me think of what you might do with an unruly toddler, which is exactly what he reminds me of. Maybe he appeals to all the other now-grown-up unruly toddlers that should have had their toys impounded years ago.
Of course, and all in caps: "IF YOU GO AFTER ME, I'M COMING FOR YOU!" Just cheap B-movie gangsterism, baiting the court and Jack Smith to...what, revoke his bail? tRump is going to push it to the limit, playing chicken with his bail conditions, and defying Judge Chutkan and Jack Smith to set him straight..."Nya-nya, waddya gonna do about it?". Well, he has a point - what will they do about it, without jeopardizing the orderly procedure of setting a trial date, pre-trial motions, etc. "A menace to the community" doesn't half describe tRump.
And he's now claiming that his post was directed against "RINOS" and others in the GOP not on board 100% with his criminality - Mike Pence, is that you?
No. it's Lindsay Graham, Ted Cruz, MTG, Kevin McCarthy, Jim Jordan, and all those members who claimed(and still do) that Biden didn't win the election.
Rob - Here is what I posted on Facebook several days ago, for what it's worth:
Just finished reading the Trump indictment. I had worried that Smith would indict Trump for having “incited" the J6 insurrection. I thought that case was weak; that Smith did not have a sufficient “smoking gun” to convict on that ground, and that Trump's defense would have pushed First Amendment/political arguments to confuse the jury and delay the trial. The J6 House Committee had recommended indicting on that ground.
Happily, Jack Smith did not indict on that ground. Instead, his case is that Trump personally orchestrated a widespread conspiracy to overturn the election by knowingly and baselessly lying about the election, bullying State officials, setting up fraudulent electors, pressing the VP to throw out certified electoral results, and “exploiting” the insurrection as a means of pressuring the VP and legislators not to certify. Unlike Trump's indirect, potentially deniable role in “inciting” the insurrection, his role as leader of the efforts to overturn the election is undeniable. Brilliant!
Upon reading through the indictment which is so complete and detailed in its description of Trump’s outrageous and frightening plans/crimes, I am bewildered and frustrated that every lie has somehow not been squashed by stronger truths that confront and counter every lie. That the big lie continues …we somehow let the truth get buried. We must have a heartier and stronger voice…an immediate response that is stronger and more resilient than the lies. America and we have been so wronged by this. And it is incomprehensible that we “allow” criminals to run and be elected for the highest post in the country… even from prison. It defies logic and sanity.
Why is the truth "buried"? It's lost in the flood of nonsense -- lies, smears, and ESPECIALLY HALF-TRUTHS.
I think of people living in the Soviet Union, where Tass and Pravda promulgated lies, smears, and half-truths, and people had to self-publish ("samizdat") their works, and you could not trust even members of your own family.
We are now much like those people living behind the Iron Curtain. We need to think, and act, clearly, and speak the truth frequently and with firm conviction.
That's what Jack Smith's "speaking indictments" do.
I can only wonder what might have been if DJT's lies had been called out and dealt with before he racked up 30,000+ of them. Would things have even gotten this far?
Yes I agree...we ourselves need to, as do ethical and moral journalists and television analysts...we need to speak loudly, clearly....and frequently, with the firm conviction of TRUTH.
I am also bewildered, Angela. How is it that we have a right to knowingly lie in order to create harm or destroy? We do not let children lie. If I erroneously accuse someone of theft or any crime, that person has a right to sue for defamation of character. Let’s hope the Constitution and the government have the same right.
Susan, your comment brings to mind something related, that we started putting together back in the 80's, in the movement to confront/end(!) domestic violence and sexual assault: that all it took was the THREAT of violence to control (the narrative, the relationship). And as he so predictably demonstrated, in his first post after the indictment, DJT constantly uses the threat of violence to keep people in line.
I'm up here in West Yellowstone, Montana helping with the restoration of a l00-plus-year-old fishing cabin in a national forest. I have a long-time friend who seriously believes the government is secretly performing sex change operations on children without their knowledge. I don't think she is a Trumper, but I'm petty sure before the summer is out I will run into one or two and I'd love to get your thoughts on how or whether to respond to them.
Essentially, tRump has no [legal] defense, at least none that can hold up in a court of law...he knows that, his legal team know that, and that's why they are playing the delay game, trying to push as many of his impending trials out past November, 2024, with the all-embracing "defense" of winning the election after a near-certain nomination, thence a dismissal of all federal charges by a compliant DOJ AG. That's it, that's his "defense" plan, no "state of mind", no "advice of counsel", no "free speech", just win the presidency and shit-can the pending cases. State charges matter if they result in criminal convictions and prison sentences, but there again, the appeals process can drag the ultimate dispositions out a few more years, and then where are we? The fight for justice is both inside and outside Fort Pierce and DC courtrooms, let's be clear on that point...if nominated, tRump MUST be defeated, full stop.
For a Secretary of State to disallow Trump on their state's ballot, a conviction is not required per the 14th Amendment Section 3 that disqualifies insurrectionists from running for President. The reasoning is: The other qualifications to be President, being 35 and a natural-born citizen, do not need a jury and court process. Those requirements are observable facts, like Trump’s months of attempts to overthrow the government culminating in January 6th.
The counter argument is: Well, MAGA Secretaries of State could ban Biden or another Democrat from the ballot, based on blatant falsehoods.
True, but: Those bans would be litigated. And there is no evidence of Biden having engaged in insurrection.
Also, is it an argument we want to rely on, that because some public officials will violate their oaths to protect and defend the Constitution, that others should not fulfill their oaths?
MAGA world would surely sue Secretaries who ban Trump. But the Jan6 Committee Report's 845 pages of evidence, and Jack Smith's 8/1/23 45-page indictment, would be brought forth in such litigation -- and the more this evidence is aired and in the public record, the better.
Plus, wouldn't such lawsuits fail due to overwhelming evidence of what we all saw with our own eyes and heard with our own ears, and in the documentary records of the 890 pages noted above?
If we really do have confidence in the rule of law, and that evidence-based, observed reality will prevail in our society, then I say we honor what Representative Bennie Thompson said in his opening statement for the first Jan6 hearing, when he quoted the famous line: "Who you gonna believe, me or your lyin' eyes?"
I have that confidence and have therefore written to my Secretary of State here in Colorado to bar Trump from the 2024 ballot.
It seems to me that, in addition to oaths of office, all American elected officials should be held to a well-crafted fiduciary standard that comes with well-crafted fiduciary duties the failed performance of which would have a procedurally swift disciplinary process erring on the side of national security, etc. Also, it seems to me that becoming a candidate for any elected post should require a rigid security/background check minimally mimicking at least what is expected of active military sorts seeking TS clearances.
Thanks for this idea! I just wrote a letter to my Secretary of State (Washington State), to share with him this proposition, to ask if it were already under consideration, and what he would need from us, the citizens of this State, to back him up in making such a move.
I was 16 when Richard Nixon resigned. Having grown up in his hometown of Whittier, Watergate and all the culprits involved become not only a watermark for me but informed my understanding of government and how it worked, or didn’t.
What I learned from studying the Nixon era is that though the operatives in Nixon’s service were politically astute, they were ultimately criminals. Well educated, well connected, savvy criminals, willing to assist a president in undermining the rule of law. Least we forget, it was the coverup that brought the downfall. (Shades of Mar-a-Lago?) They betrayed their country in service to a president who disobeyed his oath of office.
So, we see once again a group of operatives willing to serve another president who disobeyed his oath of office. The difference being that this group, the Trump toadies, are not savvy, or politically astute; they are as uninformed, as unprincipled, and as uncouth as their three time indicted leader.
I disagree about their savvy quotient- trumpster/Maga's certainly have marketing and messaging savvy, and a hell of a lot of chutzpah, to have garnered and kept so many rabid followers! Let's not underestimate them.
At first, I was horrified again by Trump’s attempts on all fronts to steal the election that was won by Biden as it was simply alleged in the indictment.
I also felt initial dismay and fear over the lateness of filing the indictment. But reading Joyce Vance’s commentary today revealed that it is all too easy for Trump’s legal team to delay the trial until after the election. He may well get away with that delay.
This brings us to the ballot box. I believe that the only way to defeat the MAGA movement being supported or endured by corporate Republicans will be to demonstrate that support of Trump is an overwhelmingly losing strategy this next time around. The way to stop people who are power mad is to show that their current path will doom their attempts to failure.
Eventually I found myself feeling more confident that the many legal consequences Trump is facing are going to bring out more anti-Maga votes. That holds especially true for the elegant indictment crafted by Jack Smith and his team to hold Trump accountable for four counts that are relatively easy to prove.
I am going to try and hold onto the faith of the DOJ and Jack Smith & Co. for this delay not to occur. I think Smith has worked out many scenarios that could happen and he is prepared for each one of them. A magistrate judge and Chutkin, the judge presiding over his trial both have told Fake 45 that there will be consequences should he continue to act up. He will “get his” one way or another. Just a side note: We are winning a lot of internal wars such as Ohio receiving over 553,000 mail-in ballots regarding an abortion ban called Issue 1. Mississippi has a relief, as of today, from horrid Jim Crow laws preventing disenfranchised people (blacks mostly) from voting. The 5th Circuit Court of Appeals said it was “cruel and unusual punishment” to have a lifetime ban against those who committed felonies.
From the first moments of watching the terrifying attack on the US Capitol on January 6, 2021, I have been wondering about all those Trump flags and banners carried and displayed by the insurrectionists. Where did the enormous flags come from? Who paid for them? And how can anyone pretend this was not a coup attempt? They were advertising it in plain, vivid sight?
Really astute point! Wasn't Ginny Thomas part of the group of Women for Trump who funded the rally and transportation? Of course rallies are legal, but they then marched to the Capitol without a permit, carrying weapons. In all my years marching on D.C., we have never been allowed to carry flagpoles or hockey sticks (much less bear spray, tasers, etc) and the permitting is very strict. Why are those who funded this travesty not being investigated and indicted, also up to the top echelons?
I thought about that, too. Maybe there are still investigations going on. I was wondering if any in the House or Senate are being investigated for participation in attempt to block the transfer of power.
Greetings Y’all, Where did I miss this issue during my grammar school civics class? Yes, at seventy-six years old, I had a daily civics class that I think placed some underlying understanding of the principles of our local, state and federal government structure and procedures. Where is the law that allows a single Senator to place a “hold” on one of the assigned functions of the Senate? How can a dumb-ass retired football coach block and interfere with the sane functioning of our military because of something he “believes or feels”? How can an arrogant retired eye doc do the same thing? There is no doubt that DJT has been terrible for our democracy, but the one thing that his presence did accomplish for us was to show how we got really lazy about letting tradition and longevity in office overrule good sense and logic when operating our government. Senate “rules” and DOJ “memos” about not indicting a sitting President are not written into the Constitution. It is time to clean up this mess.
The Indictment is masterful and devastating. The question that keeps echoing in my mind is: Who is most culpable for the fact we find our Nation in this situation of having to go thru this ordeal?
I keep coming back to the cowardice of the 45+ Senate Republicans, particularly Mitch McConnell and his leadership team, who failed to vote to convict Trump after his two Impeachments. But for their cowardice, we would not be here having to live through the ordeal of these various trials against Trump. These Senate Republicans succumbed to the fear of a short-term loss of political power over the interests of the Nation. Oh how I long for the likes of Republican Senators Howard Baker, Everett Dirkson, and Hugh Scott of the Watergate era. I put the tragedy we are currently enduring squarely at the feet of the current Senate Republican caucus.
As per Robert’s request, Trump’s indictment is necessary, correct and vital to our country remaining a Democracy. He has and continues to do wrong in front of our noses and any, any, any other citizen would be tried for such behavior. He is not a king and our founding fathers did not want a king. I also firmly believe that Trump going to jail is correct, appropriate and much needed for our country. People have forgotten what accountability looks like and this trickles down to the local level and invites anarchy. He is not a king and he is an extremely bad example for our citizens and children. Containing him is nothing but good.
I survived a 6 year relationship with an unstable man who threatened my safety and well-being. I was terrified to leave for fear of retribution from him. I was afraid of the repercussions of having him arrested. I lost a good chunk of my life as a result of allowing him to continue harming me. Once I found the courage to report him and he went to jail, I felt safe enough to look back and see that I could have done that much sooner and it would have been better. America should not be afraid to take charge of being bullied. Donald Trump is a common but well-connected bully and that is all he is. But his connections across the globe could destroy us all. He must be tried and God willing, blocked from public office and put away so he can’t do further harm. Whatever comes from this is ok, even if rough. We can’t be flimsy in our resolve to save this Democracy in order to fearfully guess what his or his followers next moves are. When the pain of the problem becomes greater than the pain of the solution, we will act. I’m there.
Amy, your strength is inspiring and your energy is unflagging! Love being on your team of local activists, thank you. We will fight the bullies together with peace, hope and civility on our side.
Thank you for this. TFG is an abusive bully and has been his entire life. We have to resolve to rid ourselves of him, despite his desperate attempts to save himself through violence and intimidation. It took courage for you to leave your abusive situation and it will take courage for us to get rid of Trump. He will definitely not "go quietly into the night." He is a damaged human being and a wrecking ball.
Thank you Amy. Unfortunately Trump cannot be jailed due to his guaranteed lifetime protection by the Secret Service. House arrest would be the most stringent penalty that could be feasibly imposed.
It is chilling to learn that the Joint Chiefs feared they must keep the National Guard away from defending the Capitol when they were most needed because they couldn't take the chance that Trump would use them to overthrow our country's government and make himself dictator.
He is now threatening revenge on anyone who opposes him. This is more than jury tampering or tossing bloody meat to his school of sharks or mere words. It's a serious attempt to undermine law, order, and constitutional process.
I am increasingly suspicious that Tuberville's program to keep as many positions in military higher ranks as possible open is similar to McConnell's scheme to load the Supreme Court, but in this case to corrupt the military to obey unlawful orders if for any reason Trump gets back into the White House.
There is no question that this indictment had to come. But unfortunately, although he should be convicted, that is not a slam dunk (although it should be). Since this is a criminal case, the jury can only convict if it is unanimous. So all it takes is one holdout juror which makes a hung jury which means he is not convicted. Under that scenario, Trump will claim victory, although the DOJ could retry him.
One of the talking heads on CNN opined that if Trump is convicted, he inevitably will appeal to the circuit court, and if they uphold the conviction, he will then appeal to the Supreme Court. And with the Trump stacked Court, will they uphold the conviction?
Nonetheless I applaud the DOJ for the indictments and hope Trump gets to spend time behind bars.
While the concern that the trials will not be completed by the election are valid, from a political standpoint, we can’t let that worry us. Mr. Hubbell is absolutely correct that we must double down on turning out the vote up and down the ballot. Only a complete victory for Democrats will put an end to this destruction of our country. But the play that seems to be emerging on the GOP side is to delicately side with the law to, IMO, appease the independent vote and any persuadable Republicans. If Trump somehow is ousted from the race, there is a real possibility that ANY GOP nominee will be such a relief that they will win back the White House--and possibly sweep in the House and Senate. But we can’t let a single one of them appear to be anything than what they are--surrogates for the real power behind all this--the Koch brothers, Heritage Foundation, Federalist Society, etc. The NYT reported on the latest Heritage Foundation “Climate Plan.” It is astonishingly deceitful and horrific--and part and parcel of the goal to turn the US into a theocratic oligarchy, forever in the control of the billionaires who support the GOP. In a way, Trump and the indictment are the distractions--and we must keep laser focused on the policies that are intent on destroying our nation--and defeat them.
There was little surprising in the details of the indictment. And yet, somehow this time it feels different. Certainly the crimes are more serious. But it's not just that. There is a sense that this time the violation is personal to us individually. Far less abstract than tax evasion or mishandling of documents, it feels like he has taken something valuable from each of us.
The feeling I have today is very much like what I felt once many years ago. On that day, I came home to find the front door standing open. Someone had broken in, ransacked the house and taken a few valuables and a brief case containing some personal papers. The papers, while important to me, were not really irreplaceable. But what was irreplaceable was the sense that my home was safe and secure. The threshold between my personal life and my public life had been violated.
Throughout all of our lifetimes, America's democracy has felt safe and secure. Despite its many failings, there has always been the reassuring sense that whatever outrages may be perpetrated by any of our elected officials, an opportunity to vote the scoundrels out is always on the horizon. Yes, their replacements may turn out to be scoundrels as well. But they too will soon need to face the voters' judgment.
Reading this indictment we learn that our democratic home has been ransacked by the one indidual we entrusted to be ultimately responsible for its safety and security. No longer do we enjoy the comfort of knowing that there will always be another election where our votes will be counted and our voices heard.
For those who are politically active, even if that activism extends no further than registering and voting, the crimes Donald Trump committed are a personal affront, a form of theft. He has attempted to rob from us our rightful place in the democratic order of this republic.
While he failed in his attempted robbery, Mr. Trump has inflicted a grievous wound to our faith in that order. It is a wound that may never heal.
Jerry, you are so on point. Each of us have had our rights violated which is why we need to have a camera in the courtroom once the trial begins. C-SPAN, I think, would be the best solution.
Doris Kearns Goodwin said this exact same thing yesterday on CNN. She feels that if the nation can watch the trial in real time and not have it processed and altered by the alt right media maybe people will see truth in action. She said we have to have hope and that in 1860 when Lincoln had turmoil on his hands “public sentiment must come around or the country won’t be able to save democracy. “. Paraphrasing here!
Public sentiment will never change if people watch media that alters the truth.
Bravo Jane.
As a big fan of Goodwin I appreciate her input of facts and her reasoning. I too believe we should have cameras in court to observe democracy at work.
Absolutely!!!!!
Not just the alt right - the mainstream media (here's looking at you, CNN and MSNBC) have fed us trump since he rode down that escalator. I say C-Span only.
Shouldn’t Fox and News Max face charges for their role in broadcasting this lie and supporting Trumps efforts to overturn the election? It’s no wonder Trumps followers believe the election process was corrupted when the news service they watch tells viewers it was. This will never end if news services are allowed to alter the truth and deliver lies daily to their viewers and readers.
Yes, we must get people to move away from the outrageous misinformation and flat out lies promoted by right wing media (maybe some on the left?). Here’s the good news. The following link will take you to a recent report on the growing efforts to provide local news with a positive approach:
https://www.nationalcivicleague.org/civic-journalism-new-and-improved-local-news/
Here’s an excerpt from the article. “Fortunately, there is a building trend toward civic journalism, coverage of local news stories in a way that informs the public about important matters and encourages them to get involved. As presented by several authors in the most recent edition of the National Civic Review, linked in this newsletter, these stories promote and enhance civic engagement to address issues like poverty, education and health, not simply the latest negative news item.
One source of this trend is Solutions Journalism. Founded in 2013 by journalists David Bornstein, Courtney E. Martin, and Tina Rosenberg, Solutions Journalism is a network of journalists and news organizations around the world that generate stories about responses to social problems. The group’s website now has “over 15,200 solution stories produced by 8,700 journalists and 1,900 news outlets from 89 countries.”
Yes, we must get people to move away from the outrageous misinformation and flat out lies promoted by right wing media (maybe some on the left?). Here’s the good news. The following link will take you to a recent report on the growing efforts to provide local news with a positive approach:
https://www.nationalcivicleague.org/civic-journalism-new-and-improved-local-news/
Here’s an excerpt from the article. “Fortunately, there is a building trend toward civic journalism, coverage of local news stories in a way that informs the public about important matters and encourages them to get involved. As presented by several authors in the most recent edition of the National Civic Review, linked in this newsletter, these stories promote and enhance civic engagement to address issues like poverty, education and health, not simply the latest negative news item.
One source of this trend is Solutions Journalism. Founded in 2013 by journalists David Bornstein, Courtney E. Martin, and Tina Rosenberg, Solutions Journalism is a network of journalists and news organizations around the world that generate stories about responses to social problems. The group’s website now has “over 15,200 solution stories produced by 8,700 journalists and 1,900 news outlets from 89 countries.”
How exactly and upon whom can we call for a televised trail???
I will be contacting them daily https://www.supremecourt.gov/contact/contact_pio.aspx
The House 1/6 committee hearings were televised and it didn't make any difference.
I'm not sure it didn't make a difference. It made a big difference to me seeing lawmakers discuss January 6 in a respectful manner. I was particularly impressed by Bennie Thompson's chairmanship of the committee. After years of Trump's blathering and grandstanding, it made me proud to see legislators who actually discussed evidence normally. It restored somewhat my faith in government.
Everything you said is how I feel as well.
I agree. Laurence Tribe and Dennis Aftergut stated it well in their op-ed in the LA Times this morning.
Right on point!!
Only on condition that the jurors are never shown.
Easy to do. I watched Chauvin's trial in Minnesota and never saw the jury once.
Yes. The jurors must be protected.
We must all insist that there be a camera in the J6 and MAL courtrooms. TFG tried to steal the most important right under our constitution, the right to vote and to have our vote count! Is anyone mounting a campaign to insist that this happens?
I read that some group is calling for cameras in the courtroom. I have yet to find that one, but just found this link.
https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2023/08/trump-in-court-cameras
I personally contacted SCOTUS to ask for it, too.
https://www.supremecourt.gov/contact/contact_pio.aspx
Thanks. So did I. And I just did it again. Here is what I said: It is absolutely essential for we, the people, to see the federal trials of Donald J. Trump regarding both his retention of top secret documents, the Mar a Logo case, and his alleged coup efforts, the Jan 6 case. These are two of the most important trials in our nation's history. We have the technology to televise these proceedings. This can be done in non intrusive ways. It can be done without placing any individuals -- attorneys, witnesses, jurors -- in jeopardy. And it must be done to instill confidence in the fairness of these proceedings. We, the people, must not be forced to judge these proceedings through the eyes and minds (biases) of commentators. Failure to allow the televising of these proceedings will further erode the confidence we, the people, have in our judicial proceedings.
Very impressive, Alan! I plan on sending another request myself, and maybe do so daily until the issue is resolved...in our favor!
Well said Alan! While the jury will decide the verdict, the citizens of our republic will decide who they vote for in November 2024. Millions will be able to witness in real time the unfiltered truth.
Thank you, Alan, for saying what needs to be said so accurately and succinctly. I just wrote to the Supreme Court and used your words, if you don't mind. I couldn't have said it better myself.
I believe the magnitude of the importance of the J6 case dictates that there be a camera in the courtroom. The proceedings would then be available for all to judge. The George Floyd trial is a case in point.
I agree. And the defendants at the George Floyd trial only killed one person.
Not to belittle the importance of THAT horrifying murder.
That's a greeatthought. WE NEED CAMERA IN THE COURTROOM!!!!!
Jerry, this paragraph “Reading this indictment we learn that our democratic home has been ransacked by the one indidual we entrusted to be ultimately responsible for its safety and security. No longer do we enjoy the comfort of knowing that there will always be another election where our votes will be counted and our voices heard.” says it all. I’ve been trying to articulate the feeling that I’ve had since J-6, and this is it. Thank you.
Exactly! This revered country of ours has been a safe place to so many, including my Belgian mother who came to this country as a “war bride” in 1948. She loved this country and believed in the security it provided her, for the rest of her life. She passed in 2015. I can’t imagine what would have been her reaction to the destruction of our democracy by tRump and his henchmen had she lived to see what unfolded in the years following her death.
I, too, could not sleep at night while Trump was in office and for as long as his foul and lying mouth is still being heard. I fear for our children and future generations until some semblance of law and order replace the chaos created by tRump. This recent indictment is like seeing the light at the end of the tunnel.
I remember how affronted and repulsed I felt about the George W Bush presidency and my horror at the invasion of Iraq. The Trump presidency reminds me that things can always be worse. Best not to forget that and keep leaning hard into manifesting what America stands for. We are still loved all over the world for it.
Every American should read this brilliant comment. Or have it read to them by a trusted friend or relative.
Thank you, Jerry Weiss.
I will never forgive the Republican Party for breaking the most wonderful and unique part of American democracy: the peaceful transition of power.
Thank-you, Jerry. Your words are my own reactions on that Jan. 6th day. I was horrified to have the day feel just like a break-in of my home years ago had felt.. but somehow worse. This time the perpetrator roams freely..thus far! But the anger and fear that dwells in me also fuels my activism.
J6 felt like a terrorist attack to me and the person responsible for it is still terrorizing our country. He needs to finally face the consequences for his actions in his destructive life and do some hard time in prison. If he “skates” on this, as my good friend would say, then we have lost our status as a nation governed by the rule of law; no less than the entire world will be damaged by that.
It was a terrorist attack. And he’s at it again with his threatening social media posts. I am so weary of living under this level of chaos, willful ignorance, and fear.
Colleen, on point with "willful" ignorance...I think the cognitive dissonance is what troubles me the most. Its scary that so many turn a blind eye because of authoritarian belief structures that they are willing to walk straight into a trap that will destroy our very young democracy. And he has been cashing in on it. He has found the root of our weakness already crippled by corporate control and lobbyists "greed" turned against the good of our people, and our planet. He has created the foundation for a civil war.
This is most sadly and unfortunately true.
The quote those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it comes to mind. Also, humans are not immune to herd mentality.
We need to rid ourselves of these monsters, which is what they are. Why so many people out there believed his lies still astounds me. And they believe them still. It's as sad as it is dangerous. Having TFG still roaming around is not good.
Susan, it strikes me as very sad, too, that his supporters are such die-hard fans, when I am sure he does not care about them one twit. Yet he is all too happy to take their money even thought they probably cannot afford it. Shaking my head.
All but a few will have to come around. Eventually. Especially if the trial is televised.
Julie, I agree but tfg isn't alone. There are co-conspirators (currently 5) who must be held responsible too.
Will, you are absolutely right. Thank you for clarifying that!
Imagine the thief who broke into your home lying and saying he had a right to break into your home because you had something he wanted. That's basically shat tRump is doing.
Like you I feel violated by Trump & Co’s J6 actions. But I realize after reading your comment that I also feel a deep sense of abuse. Our President takes an oath to protect and serve our democracy, and instead DJT did everything to protect and serve HIS self interests, trampling on our democratic rights. What’s worse, the abuse or the fact that the abuse is being inflicted by the very person you expected to take care of you? Perhaps the latter.
Yes! Abused and violated. That’s exactly how I felt during the pandemic. I never liked TFG. He was brash, boorish and arrogant. Then, he put my family in danger with flagrant disregard. From the tossing out of the pandemic playbook to the missing and nonexistent PPE. We had to watch in horror as he flew all over our country to hold his campaign rallies / twisted comedy tour when it was still not safe. Instead of being a leader and a comfort to the American people at a time of disaster, he put his own selfish needs above all. He endangered all of us when he was gathering crowds and turning his CULTivated minions into vectors. We all have PTSD after his residency. The only thing we have now is our ability to vote, and make sure he and his Merry band of deplorable does not destroy our democracy.
WOW! CULTivated minions-thats great!
Thx!😊
I remember when he caught Covid....justifiably, I thought. The fact that he got better only reinforced his Covid nonsense, though!
Susan, your use of the word "abuse" rings loud and clear with me. And, the abuse is continuing....witness the threats DT continues to shout at anyone who contradicts him...basically at the world. He needs to be silenced, somehow.
Yes, he does. He's at it again by threatening Jack Smith. That is who he is and how he makes his way in the world. And some people lap it up. That is the part that really distresses me. When Obama/Biden was in office I often thought about how lucky young people were to have leaders they could look up to. How quickly that changed with TFG. Let's turn this around.
And also then gaslight the country about that abuse. Trump's behavior mirrors an unrepentant abuser's behavior.
Because he Is an unrepentant abuser, who sadistically laughs at other’s reactions and dismay.
This man is SO deeply damaged I am continually amazed he’s lived this long swimming in the cesspit of NYC real estate and mafia dons.
Only the good die young, perhaps?
Exactly!
Having been raised by narcissistic parents (both), I can assure you, we have, as a country, been subjected to physiological abuse. The gaslighting, the lying, the constant chaos, the turning things around and shaming us while denying what he has done. All in the playbook.
Thank you for raising this point Posey, for I feel what you say is true. Once we get past all his criminal trials, what can we do about this? Would it be possible to get a class action civil suit against him? What about all the families he has torn apart with his spewing of all that hatred? It seems there should be some recourse for what he has done to us, as individuals of this nation.
Trump is an abusive person. After we elected Biden and he was no longer in office I felt I had some idea of how people in abusive relationships feel. Once you are free of the abuser you certainly don't want to go back. We can't afford to be frightened, but we do need to work together and not let ourselves become further divided. Reading TFG's words throughout this indictment made me realize just how profoundly he twisted the truth to make his followers believe him.
You are so right, Jerry! Having this man as President robbed us of our pride in our country, our pride as American citizens, striking at the heart of our individual identities and ideals. His unseemly obsession with trying to cling to the tendrils of power with clearly illegal acts has intensified our loss. This J6 indictment, to me at least, restores my faith that in this country the system works, laws work. It’s ordinary citizens on a grand jury propelling this.
Jerry, perfectly said. For those paying attention to the news, the indictment will not offer many new facts. But it reinforced for me exactly what you described. The days when I could live my life secure in the belief that the bigger picture is being take care by good people in government are long gone. And, of course, it may not be repaired in my lifetime.
I hope Trump is tried and a verdict reached before the 2024 election. That may be difficult, and of course it does little to change the minds of the Trump cult. I really fear we are going to *go through some things*. But I don’t think there’s an alternative to going through it. It just is.
Glad to have found this community of like-minded patriots.
I second your comment about finding a community of like-minded patriots.
“The days when I could live my life secure in the belief that the bigger picture is being take care by good people in government are long gone.“. I so appreciate these words. Such a big overlooked loss…. I’m so very sad for my young adult kids and wanting to find hope. How do we talk to reasonable Republicans among us??? I am trying desperately to understand this and surprised there isn’t more discussion about how to actually try to talk to these critical voters.
Thank you. I am not sure that we can talk to MAGA voters or convince them in a single conversation, but I’m no expert. A friend has long (over the course of months) conversations in small increments with the MAGA voters she knows. Mostly, I still just try to be civil. We have to keep trying to win elections at all levels and perhaps the fever will burn out over time. I’m 66 and don’t think I will see the end of this in my lifetime.
Jerry, you articulate for me how I’ve been feeling throughout this ordeal. I phone banked, wrote postcards, and of course voted early in 2020. Yet I felt robbed every time the Defendant spoke lies about the election. The fact that the indictment so clearly and succinctly addresses this, especially in the last charge of disregarding voters, made me feel our democracy matters. Laws matter.
Exactly. He has harmed every citizen of this country no matter what their affiliation. For this reason, we must come together on November 5, 2024, to show the world how people in democracies keep their country safe from wannabe dictators quietly and legally. This is not just Jack Smith's burden. It is our duty to the founders and to the citizens who have defended the United States of America for over 200 years whenever it was threatened.
Jerry, this is an excellent observation, brought home by your personal experience. Thanks so much for that perspective.
As I noted in another comment about the incredible power of the final sentence in the indictment, "...Donald J. Trump, did knowingly combine, conspire, confederate, and agree with co-conspirators, known and unknown to the Grand Jury, to injure, oppress, threaten, and intimidate one or more persons in the free exercise and enjoyment of a right and privilege secured to them by the Constitution and laws of the United States -- that is, the right to vote, and to have one's vote counted," the reason it's so powerful is that it's personal to every one of us. Like your experience above, that closing statement strikes a visceral chord.
I harken back to the plea deal cut by prosecutors and Spiro Agnew in 1973, where rather than face prison for multiple bribery charges, he resigned his Vice-Presidency, paid a fine, and retired to private life...forever, as a condition of his plea. Now Jack Smith, with his two federal indictments, has tRump wrapped up and virtually fitted for an orange jumpsuit, and there may be a window of opportunity in the months ahead for an "Agnew deal" to present itself, either as a proffer or prosecutorial initiative. It all depends on several interacting political factors, of course, but I'm not ruling out such a possibility...just saying.
In these days of social media and the numbers of far-right "news" media outlets -- a far cry from what was available during Agnew's time -- an "Agnew deal" would be near-meaningless for Trump. The notion of his "retiring to private life" would not compute, to the man... and his continuous presence in the collective discourse would only keep alive his power to foment chaos and to abuse. I trust that Jack Smith is all too aware of that danger. That said, it becomes more and more incumbent on us, the voters, to ensure that a Republican is not put into the Presidency in 2024, so that a pardon would not come from that office, either.
Isn't there a vacant island somewhere to send him for all his remaining days? Y'know, like Napoleon was sent to St. Helen's? Without communication services but with food (hamburders) delivered by drones. See ya later, dictator!
Let's hope he DOESN'T get a Ford like pardon like Nixon did.
That would be a good outcome, but I seriously doubt that TFG would go for that. He loves the drama, the chaos, the spotlight, even if it's only for negative attention. He and his ilk fall clearly into the Buddhist concept of "hungry ghosts." There will never be enough drama and chaos for this damaged man and his supporters.
Lance, With the damage tRump has done to us and our country he does not deserve an "Agnew deal". I very much doubt Jack Smith would even entertain such a plea. The world will be watching the trial and our standing in the world is also on trial.
So well said. Yes, he, and his cohorts, have undermined the very foundations of our society so that we no longer have any sense of security. He needs to be held accountable and never be allowed to hold public office again.
Spot on/Hear hear!
Superb analysis. You put into words what many of us feel but had trouble articulating. We, too, have had a house break in and your description is spot on. Thank you.
Excellent - just how I feel.
Utterly, and chillingly correct!
I just read the indictment. It’s operatic! What a pathetic and scary group of power-hungry yahoos. The last phrase of the last line (ironically pg 45) brought me to tears: “…DONALD J. TRUMP,
did knowingly combine, conspire, confederate, and agree with co-conspirators, known and
unknown to the Grand Jury, to injure, oppress, threaten, and intimidate one or more persons in the free exercise and enjoyment of a right and privilege secured to them by the Constitution and laws of the United States—that is, the right to vote, and to have one’s vote counted.” Clean and clear, “ the right to vote, and to have one’s vote counted.”✌️🇺🇸💙
I totally agree, Megan.
The only pity is that you have to read all the way to the end before you get hit between the eyes with that powerful sentence.
Makes me wish they could have found a way to put that on the first page, since it so eloquently cuts to the heart of the matter!
Don’t worry. The judge and the defense will get the message loud and clear.
I think we could amplify this by posting it on our social media feeds. It might be worth a shot.
The opening page is also quite gripping.
It brought me to tears too. We are not crazy. He did what he did. And all of it was illegal.
The crazy making thing of it is that what he says and does is right out in the open but obvious truth no longer holds sway in our country thanks to Fox and the Tepublican party. (Typo, but I’ll leave it.)
I read it today and value the clarity and structure of the document. I've never read an indictment in my life, so I've no idea if this is normal or just particularly well done.
Also, it read like a movie script and that writers are busy creating in real time.
Oooh, I'm asking for this as a birthday present!
I think we knew he would violate his release conditions but he did it in less than 24 hours. He cannot keep his piehole shut!!! Bring it judge Chutkin!!!!
Joyce Vance has a good discussion of this in Civil Discourse. She argues that he should be called in to explain and be warned again. Any more severe action at this time, she believes, will just cause further delays, which is what Trump wants. I started where you are but she persuaded me otherwise. https://open.substack.com/pub/joycevance/p/if-you-go-after-me?r=3hzz5&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email
I read Joyce's comments on this and heard commentary last night suggesting that the prosecutors and judge should not rise to the bait. It's clear that TFG is a master baiter [sic] and that he's trying to provoke something. I agree with Joyce that he should be forced to show cause, but he should be dragged into court in DC and/or televised when he does so. He should be advised that any further violations will result in house arrest, an ankle bracelet, and no TV, telephone, or internet.
Actually more importantly, no golf.
This makes so much sense, thank you. I posted a question about how long it would take to revoke bond, but I like the televised appearance to show cause, followed by the house arrest/ media blackout!
Good one, Bob!
Is it possible to set a high financial burden on him by fining him for every threatening utterance?
Master baiter! Perfect!
Not holding him to account for fear of delays is playing directly into his hands, allowing him to continue to act with complete impunity.
I have a lot of respect for Joyce, but I don't agree with her take on this. It is way past time for immediate consequences. At the very least, he should be held in contempt of court. Better still, new and separate proceedings should be commenced against him for jury tampering and/or witness intimidation.
IOW there must surely be ways to hold him accountable that don't give him exactly what he wants (delay, delay and more delay).
Good point about contempt of court. I wonder of that could be imposed with a substantial fine for each violation. The judge has been very tough on J6 defendants so I think we will see some mechanism that will progress in severity as a continues to violate. Hoping anyway.
I feel his phone should be taken from him and he should not be allowed to use the phone or computer or at least not on sites we can about what he wants to. And anyone doing it for him would be in contempt of court also.
I like this idea, but it kind of makes me think of what you might do with an unruly toddler, which is exactly what he reminds me of. Maybe he appeals to all the other now-grown-up unruly toddlers that should have had their toys impounded years ago.
Of course, and all in caps: "IF YOU GO AFTER ME, I'M COMING FOR YOU!" Just cheap B-movie gangsterism, baiting the court and Jack Smith to...what, revoke his bail? tRump is going to push it to the limit, playing chicken with his bail conditions, and defying Judge Chutkan and Jack Smith to set him straight..."Nya-nya, waddya gonna do about it?". Well, he has a point - what will they do about it, without jeopardizing the orderly procedure of setting a trial date, pre-trial motions, etc. "A menace to the community" doesn't half describe tRump.
And he's now claiming that his post was directed against "RINOS" and others in the GOP not on board 100% with his criminality - Mike Pence, is that you?
No. it's Lindsay Graham, Ted Cruz, MTG, Kevin McCarthy, Jim Jordan, and all those members who claimed(and still do) that Biden didn't win the election.
Rob - Here is what I posted on Facebook several days ago, for what it's worth:
Just finished reading the Trump indictment. I had worried that Smith would indict Trump for having “incited" the J6 insurrection. I thought that case was weak; that Smith did not have a sufficient “smoking gun” to convict on that ground, and that Trump's defense would have pushed First Amendment/political arguments to confuse the jury and delay the trial. The J6 House Committee had recommended indicting on that ground.
Happily, Jack Smith did not indict on that ground. Instead, his case is that Trump personally orchestrated a widespread conspiracy to overturn the election by knowingly and baselessly lying about the election, bullying State officials, setting up fraudulent electors, pressing the VP to throw out certified electoral results, and “exploiting” the insurrection as a means of pressuring the VP and legislators not to certify. Unlike Trump's indirect, potentially deniable role in “inciting” the insurrection, his role as leader of the efforts to overturn the election is undeniable. Brilliant!
Upon reading through the indictment which is so complete and detailed in its description of Trump’s outrageous and frightening plans/crimes, I am bewildered and frustrated that every lie has somehow not been squashed by stronger truths that confront and counter every lie. That the big lie continues …we somehow let the truth get buried. We must have a heartier and stronger voice…an immediate response that is stronger and more resilient than the lies. America and we have been so wronged by this. And it is incomprehensible that we “allow” criminals to run and be elected for the highest post in the country… even from prison. It defies logic and sanity.
Why is the truth "buried"? It's lost in the flood of nonsense -- lies, smears, and ESPECIALLY HALF-TRUTHS.
I think of people living in the Soviet Union, where Tass and Pravda promulgated lies, smears, and half-truths, and people had to self-publish ("samizdat") their works, and you could not trust even members of your own family.
We are now much like those people living behind the Iron Curtain. We need to think, and act, clearly, and speak the truth frequently and with firm conviction.
That's what Jack Smith's "speaking indictments" do.
I can only wonder what might have been if DJT's lies had been called out and dealt with before he racked up 30,000+ of them. Would things have even gotten this far?
Bannon: Flood the pipeline with excrement. A paraphrase.
Rudy: Truth is not truth.
Pontius Pilate said as much.
Yes I agree...we ourselves need to, as do ethical and moral journalists and television analysts...we need to speak loudly, clearly....and frequently, with the firm conviction of TRUTH.
Knowingly broadcasting lies about the election makes them part of Trumps deceit. They should be charged as well as DJT.
I am also bewildered, Angela. How is it that we have a right to knowingly lie in order to create harm or destroy? We do not let children lie. If I erroneously accuse someone of theft or any crime, that person has a right to sue for defamation of character. Let’s hope the Constitution and the government have the same right.
Susan, your comment brings to mind something related, that we started putting together back in the 80's, in the movement to confront/end(!) domestic violence and sexual assault: that all it took was the THREAT of violence to control (the narrative, the relationship). And as he so predictably demonstrated, in his first post after the indictment, DJT constantly uses the threat of violence to keep people in line.
I agree!
Too true/hear hear!
💯agree
I'm up here in West Yellowstone, Montana helping with the restoration of a l00-plus-year-old fishing cabin in a national forest. I have a long-time friend who seriously believes the government is secretly performing sex change operations on children without their knowledge. I don't think she is a Trumper, but I'm petty sure before the summer is out I will run into one or two and I'd love to get your thoughts on how or whether to respond to them.
(cross-posted from Status Kuo Substack)
Essentially, tRump has no [legal] defense, at least none that can hold up in a court of law...he knows that, his legal team know that, and that's why they are playing the delay game, trying to push as many of his impending trials out past November, 2024, with the all-embracing "defense" of winning the election after a near-certain nomination, thence a dismissal of all federal charges by a compliant DOJ AG. That's it, that's his "defense" plan, no "state of mind", no "advice of counsel", no "free speech", just win the presidency and shit-can the pending cases. State charges matter if they result in criminal convictions and prison sentences, but there again, the appeals process can drag the ultimate dispositions out a few more years, and then where are we? The fight for justice is both inside and outside Fort Pierce and DC courtrooms, let's be clear on that point...if nominated, tRump MUST be defeated, full stop.
For a Secretary of State to disallow Trump on their state's ballot, a conviction is not required per the 14th Amendment Section 3 that disqualifies insurrectionists from running for President. The reasoning is: The other qualifications to be President, being 35 and a natural-born citizen, do not need a jury and court process. Those requirements are observable facts, like Trump’s months of attempts to overthrow the government culminating in January 6th.
The counter argument is: Well, MAGA Secretaries of State could ban Biden or another Democrat from the ballot, based on blatant falsehoods.
True, but: Those bans would be litigated. And there is no evidence of Biden having engaged in insurrection.
Also, is it an argument we want to rely on, that because some public officials will violate their oaths to protect and defend the Constitution, that others should not fulfill their oaths?
MAGA world would surely sue Secretaries who ban Trump. But the Jan6 Committee Report's 845 pages of evidence, and Jack Smith's 8/1/23 45-page indictment, would be brought forth in such litigation -- and the more this evidence is aired and in the public record, the better.
Plus, wouldn't such lawsuits fail due to overwhelming evidence of what we all saw with our own eyes and heard with our own ears, and in the documentary records of the 890 pages noted above?
If we really do have confidence in the rule of law, and that evidence-based, observed reality will prevail in our society, then I say we honor what Representative Bennie Thompson said in his opening statement for the first Jan6 hearing, when he quoted the famous line: "Who you gonna believe, me or your lyin' eyes?"
I have that confidence and have therefore written to my Secretary of State here in Colorado to bar Trump from the 2024 ballot.
All comments and critiques welcome!
It seems to me that, in addition to oaths of office, all American elected officials should be held to a well-crafted fiduciary standard that comes with well-crafted fiduciary duties the failed performance of which would have a procedurally swift disciplinary process erring on the side of national security, etc. Also, it seems to me that becoming a candidate for any elected post should require a rigid security/background check minimally mimicking at least what is expected of active military sorts seeking TS clearances.
Indeed. And maybe pass a high school civics test? ! 🙃
Thanks for this idea! I just wrote a letter to my Secretary of State (Washington State), to share with him this proposition, to ask if it were already under consideration, and what he would need from us, the citizens of this State, to back him up in making such a move.
Being another Washingtonian, I can guess that our Atty Genl Ferguson would go for that.
Pleasure. Hope that gets some traction!
I was 16 when Richard Nixon resigned. Having grown up in his hometown of Whittier, Watergate and all the culprits involved become not only a watermark for me but informed my understanding of government and how it worked, or didn’t.
What I learned from studying the Nixon era is that though the operatives in Nixon’s service were politically astute, they were ultimately criminals. Well educated, well connected, savvy criminals, willing to assist a president in undermining the rule of law. Least we forget, it was the coverup that brought the downfall. (Shades of Mar-a-Lago?) They betrayed their country in service to a president who disobeyed his oath of office.
So, we see once again a group of operatives willing to serve another president who disobeyed his oath of office. The difference being that this group, the Trump toadies, are not savvy, or politically astute; they are as uninformed, as unprincipled, and as uncouth as their three time indicted leader.
I disagree about their savvy quotient- trumpster/Maga's certainly have marketing and messaging savvy, and a hell of a lot of chutzpah, to have garnered and kept so many rabid followers! Let's not underestimate them.
Trumps toadies, for the most part, are from the fringe, the crazy far right wing. But you're right, they are cleaver marketeers.
Nixon's henchmen were from the conservative GOP Establishment, perhaps more polished in their messaging.
But the bottom line, regardless of savviness, is they're all crooks.
At first, I was horrified again by Trump’s attempts on all fronts to steal the election that was won by Biden as it was simply alleged in the indictment.
I also felt initial dismay and fear over the lateness of filing the indictment. But reading Joyce Vance’s commentary today revealed that it is all too easy for Trump’s legal team to delay the trial until after the election. He may well get away with that delay.
This brings us to the ballot box. I believe that the only way to defeat the MAGA movement being supported or endured by corporate Republicans will be to demonstrate that support of Trump is an overwhelmingly losing strategy this next time around. The way to stop people who are power mad is to show that their current path will doom their attempts to failure.
Eventually I found myself feeling more confident that the many legal consequences Trump is facing are going to bring out more anti-Maga votes. That holds especially true for the elegant indictment crafted by Jack Smith and his team to hold Trump accountable for four counts that are relatively easy to prove.
I am going to try and hold onto the faith of the DOJ and Jack Smith & Co. for this delay not to occur. I think Smith has worked out many scenarios that could happen and he is prepared for each one of them. A magistrate judge and Chutkin, the judge presiding over his trial both have told Fake 45 that there will be consequences should he continue to act up. He will “get his” one way or another. Just a side note: We are winning a lot of internal wars such as Ohio receiving over 553,000 mail-in ballots regarding an abortion ban called Issue 1. Mississippi has a relief, as of today, from horrid Jim Crow laws preventing disenfranchised people (blacks mostly) from voting. The 5th Circuit Court of Appeals said it was “cruel and unusual punishment” to have a lifetime ban against those who committed felonies.
https://mississippitoday.org/2023/08/04/5th-circuit-panel-strikes-down-mississippis-lifetime-felony-voting-ban/
We are making headway, inch by inch.
From the first moments of watching the terrifying attack on the US Capitol on January 6, 2021, I have been wondering about all those Trump flags and banners carried and displayed by the insurrectionists. Where did the enormous flags come from? Who paid for them? And how can anyone pretend this was not a coup attempt? They were advertising it in plain, vivid sight?
Really astute point! Wasn't Ginny Thomas part of the group of Women for Trump who funded the rally and transportation? Of course rallies are legal, but they then marched to the Capitol without a permit, carrying weapons. In all my years marching on D.C., we have never been allowed to carry flagpoles or hockey sticks (much less bear spray, tasers, etc) and the permitting is very strict. Why are those who funded this travesty not being investigated and indicted, also up to the top echelons?
I thought about that, too. Maybe there are still investigations going on. I was wondering if any in the House or Senate are being investigated for participation in attempt to block the transfer of power.
I surely hope so..
Greetings Y’all, Where did I miss this issue during my grammar school civics class? Yes, at seventy-six years old, I had a daily civics class that I think placed some underlying understanding of the principles of our local, state and federal government structure and procedures. Where is the law that allows a single Senator to place a “hold” on one of the assigned functions of the Senate? How can a dumb-ass retired football coach block and interfere with the sane functioning of our military because of something he “believes or feels”? How can an arrogant retired eye doc do the same thing? There is no doubt that DJT has been terrible for our democracy, but the one thing that his presence did accomplish for us was to show how we got really lazy about letting tradition and longevity in office overrule good sense and logic when operating our government. Senate “rules” and DOJ “memos” about not indicting a sitting President are not written into the Constitution. It is time to clean up this mess.
The Indictment is masterful and devastating. The question that keeps echoing in my mind is: Who is most culpable for the fact we find our Nation in this situation of having to go thru this ordeal?
I keep coming back to the cowardice of the 45+ Senate Republicans, particularly Mitch McConnell and his leadership team, who failed to vote to convict Trump after his two Impeachments. But for their cowardice, we would not be here having to live through the ordeal of these various trials against Trump. These Senate Republicans succumbed to the fear of a short-term loss of political power over the interests of the Nation. Oh how I long for the likes of Republican Senators Howard Baker, Everett Dirkson, and Hugh Scott of the Watergate era. I put the tragedy we are currently enduring squarely at the feet of the current Senate Republican caucus.
Don’t forget the supporting parts the of the House Republicans.
As per Robert’s request, Trump’s indictment is necessary, correct and vital to our country remaining a Democracy. He has and continues to do wrong in front of our noses and any, any, any other citizen would be tried for such behavior. He is not a king and our founding fathers did not want a king. I also firmly believe that Trump going to jail is correct, appropriate and much needed for our country. People have forgotten what accountability looks like and this trickles down to the local level and invites anarchy. He is not a king and he is an extremely bad example for our citizens and children. Containing him is nothing but good.
I survived a 6 year relationship with an unstable man who threatened my safety and well-being. I was terrified to leave for fear of retribution from him. I was afraid of the repercussions of having him arrested. I lost a good chunk of my life as a result of allowing him to continue harming me. Once I found the courage to report him and he went to jail, I felt safe enough to look back and see that I could have done that much sooner and it would have been better. America should not be afraid to take charge of being bullied. Donald Trump is a common but well-connected bully and that is all he is. But his connections across the globe could destroy us all. He must be tried and God willing, blocked from public office and put away so he can’t do further harm. Whatever comes from this is ok, even if rough. We can’t be flimsy in our resolve to save this Democracy in order to fearfully guess what his or his followers next moves are. When the pain of the problem becomes greater than the pain of the solution, we will act. I’m there.
Amy, your strength is inspiring and your energy is unflagging! Love being on your team of local activists, thank you. We will fight the bullies together with peace, hope and civility on our side.
Thank you for this. TFG is an abusive bully and has been his entire life. We have to resolve to rid ourselves of him, despite his desperate attempts to save himself through violence and intimidation. It took courage for you to leave your abusive situation and it will take courage for us to get rid of Trump. He will definitely not "go quietly into the night." He is a damaged human being and a wrecking ball.
Thank you Amy. Unfortunately Trump cannot be jailed due to his guaranteed lifetime protection by the Secret Service. House arrest would be the most stringent penalty that could be feasibly imposed.
That's a complex question that the Secret Service has not decided, at this juncture, per yesterday's WaPo article, discussing the issue. https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2023/08/04/trump-criminal-cases-prison-secret-service
It is chilling to learn that the Joint Chiefs feared they must keep the National Guard away from defending the Capitol when they were most needed because they couldn't take the chance that Trump would use them to overthrow our country's government and make himself dictator.
He is now threatening revenge on anyone who opposes him. This is more than jury tampering or tossing bloody meat to his school of sharks or mere words. It's a serious attempt to undermine law, order, and constitutional process.
I am increasingly suspicious that Tuberville's program to keep as many positions in military higher ranks as possible open is similar to McConnell's scheme to load the Supreme Court, but in this case to corrupt the military to obey unlawful orders if for any reason Trump gets back into the White House.
There is no question that this indictment had to come. But unfortunately, although he should be convicted, that is not a slam dunk (although it should be). Since this is a criminal case, the jury can only convict if it is unanimous. So all it takes is one holdout juror which makes a hung jury which means he is not convicted. Under that scenario, Trump will claim victory, although the DOJ could retry him.
One of the talking heads on CNN opined that if Trump is convicted, he inevitably will appeal to the circuit court, and if they uphold the conviction, he will then appeal to the Supreme Court. And with the Trump stacked Court, will they uphold the conviction?
Nonetheless I applaud the DOJ for the indictments and hope Trump gets to spend time behind bars.
While the concern that the trials will not be completed by the election are valid, from a political standpoint, we can’t let that worry us. Mr. Hubbell is absolutely correct that we must double down on turning out the vote up and down the ballot. Only a complete victory for Democrats will put an end to this destruction of our country. But the play that seems to be emerging on the GOP side is to delicately side with the law to, IMO, appease the independent vote and any persuadable Republicans. If Trump somehow is ousted from the race, there is a real possibility that ANY GOP nominee will be such a relief that they will win back the White House--and possibly sweep in the House and Senate. But we can’t let a single one of them appear to be anything than what they are--surrogates for the real power behind all this--the Koch brothers, Heritage Foundation, Federalist Society, etc. The NYT reported on the latest Heritage Foundation “Climate Plan.” It is astonishingly deceitful and horrific--and part and parcel of the goal to turn the US into a theocratic oligarchy, forever in the control of the billionaires who support the GOP. In a way, Trump and the indictment are the distractions--and we must keep laser focused on the policies that are intent on destroying our nation--and defeat them.
I completely agree with this. Thank you.
Exactly. Well put.