I have copied and pasted most of the Atlantic article over at That's Another Fine Mess. When you read it, you will find that Substack has Terms of Service - that everyone here is supposed to abide by and they are supposed to enforce - which bans "hate speech." They have the power to turn off the Nazis tonight. And because the Nazis and their subscribers have all violated the Terms of Service, Substack doesn't need to repay any of them a penny. No one's "First Amendment rights" are violated when a non-governmental body tells someone their views are unwelcome and they are also unwelcome because of their views.
I have urged my readers at That's Another Fine Mess to write to Substack at support@substack.com and tell them how much we appreciate Substack and how happy we would all be if they were to use the powers they already have to rid the site of Nazis, neo-Confederates and all the other White Supremacist pondscum. (Don't use "pondscum" with them) My readers have also restacked the post, shared it at FB, sent it to friends and shared it with Substack comrades for them to pass on. You can do that too.
We can make this viral and we can convince the Silly Con Valley boys that however much they're making off the Nazis, it won't buy them enough soap to clean off the stain, and will harm them with the people they all actually want to have here (they promote our side in their publicity, not the Nazis).
Here's the post. You too can put on your hip waders and clean out the clogged drains here.
I very much appreciate you emphasizing this story about Nazis on substack as does Mr. Hubbely by directing us to the Atlantic article, but the much bigger problem the number of followers of Nazi propaganda, lies and sentiments.
We can boycott and protest the social media platforms, but what do we do about the readers?
The answer is education (civics, history, etc) but as would be necessary for the growth of evil movements, education has been and continues to be the focus of attack by the bad guys. If we think things are bad now, wait till today’s children are adults given what they are intentionally not being taught. The attacks on truth in education are part of a long game.
Yes, education is the key but it's an ongoing life long process. I've seen people who seemed to be fairly liberal slowly boil over the course of the Trump years until they embraced some pretty awful hateful beliefs. I hear folks who say those ideas must have been under the surface all along, but I don't agree that is always the case. We aren't born with our beliefs and we alter them throughout a lifetime based on what we think we see. I suspect it's just one way for people to comfort themselves that their own beliefs are immutable and thus will always be just.
News articles and social media are education. Voting adults are constantly learning of new events and drawing new conclusions from them, and listening to opinions and deciding how to adjust their world views based on what they think are facts and solid opinions. I agree our youth need better lessons on assessing information, but for now and for this election we need as little misinformation and hate filled biased opinion as possible to produce a better educated adult voting public.
I wrote them, adding mention of the young men who were shot in Burlington VT recently, one of whom faces life in a wheelchair, for their attire and foreign language.
Oh; it’s so awful. We live in Stowe- not far from Burly. It’s sickening regardless of where it happens but this is here.. and so many of us are in shock. This doesn’t happen here. I know, I know… famous last words.
I am mortified that the shooter plead not guilty. What the devil??????? You do this atrocious thing for some sick ass prejudice reason and then you plead not guilty. WHAT? I guess no courage for the conviction. GEEZUZ on a bike.
Pleading “not guilty” is how a person preserves their constitutional right to trial by jury, not a statement about their conduct. It is a procedural step, nothing more.
I took your advice/request to heart and sent the following email to tos@substack.com:
Substack:
Your own Terms of Use state:
"Substack cannot be used to publish content or fund initiatives that incite violence based on protected classes. Offending behavior includes credible threats of physical harm to people based on their race, ethnicity, national origin, religion, sex, gender identity, sexual orientation, age, disability or medical condition."
You are currently hosting (and monetizing) numerous hate groups and individuals who are or were part of them. Those individuals/groups often practice "stochastic terrorism" by way of their hateful words and images. That "stochastic terrorism," in turn, often results in violence against people. Examples include Andkons Reich Press, White-Papers, Turning Point Stocks, The Tribalist, People's Initiative of New England, and sites that speak about the "Jewish Question." Sites with which Richard Spencer or Patrick Casey are affiliated have frequently espoused hate speech against non-White and Jewish peoples (e.g., Geniuses, in their most consequential forms, appear predominantly among Aryans orbited by successful Jews absolutely is trafficking in hate speech).
Please use your First Amendment right NOT to publish hate speech and enforce your own Terms of Use by shutting down people who openly espouse Nazism, fascism, violence in any form or discrimination against any person or group of people based on their skin color, race, religious beliefs, sex, social relationships or party affiliations.
Well said and thank you! I will write a note to Substack today. I was just complaining to them about something else, so I’m sure they’ll be happy to hear from me again. 😊 The neo-Nazi problem is not just the issue of writers publishing newsletters for subscribers who enjoy Nazi propaganda. These trolls, for lack of a better word, show up in the comment sections of other newsletters just to harass and annoy people. This mostly happens to writers who allow people to comment without paying. I’ve seen dozens of neo-Nazi outbreaks on Robert Reich’s newsletter, and recently, Rick Wilson had a neo-Nazi troll outbreak and had to ban a number of people. It’s disgusting really. I appreciate these writers allowing people to join in the conversation who perhaps cannot afford a subscription, but it does leave them vulnerable to these invasions.
I received an auto reply with "helpful" links to remedies like subscription reimbursements and so on, but with the hopeful bit at the end that if those links didn't quite do it, there is "no need" to continue to harass them (my words) because staff will deal with whatever:
"Still need help? No need to reply to this email; a Support team member will reply if we can provide further assistance. Due to high ticket volume during the holidays, we're temporarily unable to respond to all support inquiries. We will only be able to respond if direct action is needed on your publication or account."
I take that to mean I won't expect to hear back but that someone will at least glance at my email. Surely someone will say to someone else when they drop by to check in that "there sure seems to be a surge in complaints about Nazi substack articles today". That's a beginning; someone notices a slight shift in the sand, a gentle swelling. Hopefully.
I was curious about whether the Nazi Substacks actually required payment for comments. A lot of sites don't. Do neo-Nazis actually PAY to rant? Of the 16 Katz found, how many is "many?" He describes one ( Casey) who was banned by the company that processes the payments (Stripe) but used a "third party" processor. Perhaps Substack can kick the issue down the line by requiring use of Stripe.
I am of two minds here, since I do support the Supreme Court decision in Skokie, which held that a city could not refuse a permit for a neo-Nazi march simply because they didn't like the content of what the party stood for--there had to be evidence that the march would lead to actual violence. That was a case involving a government entity (the town of Skokie) but the principle could be applied by a private social media company. That seems to be what Substack's official position is:
"Substack cannot be used to publish content or fund initiatives that incite violence based on protected classes. Offending behavior includes credible threats of physical harm to people based on their race, ethnicity, national origin, religion, sex, gender identity, sexual orientation, age, disability or medical condition." Content Guidelines, Hate.
These sites do promote hatred (as did the American Nazi Party in Skokie) but how often do they actually call for violence--the apparent trigger for Substack? One approach could be a monetary penalty approach: for each violation of the policy (even if only occasionally) the percentage Substack takes is HIGHER. At least this could squelch the income flow to those sites. The question then becomes: which do you dislike more: the ranter making money or Substack making money.
Patrolling this would likely be the brave efforts of folks to GO to these sites and report anything advocating actual violence.
It is clear that the rise of hatred has arisen exponentially since Skokie (1977). We saw in Charlottesville how promotion of hatred can slip pretty easily into actual violence. In these days of stochastic terrorism a stronger Content Guideline could include simply advocating physical harm to a protected class (Richard Hanania's stuff would seem to qualify), not just showing a "credible threat."
But bottom line, I do hope that 16 or so out of 17000 plus paid writers doesn't discourage people of good will from using Substack, both reading and writing for it. If that happens, to coin a phrase "the terrorists win." The only approach worth taking is to FIGHT the worst of it in the ways you suggest. The response David D got from the NYT shows that momentum in complaints does get the attention of responsible hosts.
Push comes to shove, at least this is IDENTIFYING the white nationalist bigots and I suspect the FBI is watching--as sadly, subscribing to Robert or to Heather Cox Richardson may well be watched by an FBI reconstituted under trump 2.0. It is ABOVE all our job to keep trump 2.0 from happening. Pockets of folks preaching to the converted who are will to pay to be preached to are minor in comparison to that need. What Katz describes is going unlikely to create a mass of sudden trump supporters, most of whom have never heard of Substack. The problems of the MSM and false equivalency are much more of a problem.
The Skokie decision involved a GOVERNMENT agency. They are subject to the First Amendment. You, and I, and Substack, and everyone else, does not have to abide the presence of scum, and we are not violating any rights the scum may think they have, by kicking them in the ass before the door hits them on the way out.
I know the first Amendment is government only; I mentioned that. Substack doesn't HAVE to host pond scum, but if they want to approach the spirit of the First Amendment there are modifications they could make to their policies that wouldn't meet First Amendment level scrutiny but still draws a line short of simply booting out. One is to broaden its community standards to actually INCLUDE hate speech, not just the incitement to violence that might arise from it. The idea is to counter the accusations of "censorship of the right" by being able to point to specific instances of the reasons for the booting.
For example going on about "grooming children" is stupid and wrong, but not nearly at the level of "blacks should be sterilized because they pollute the gene pool."
(One thing I like about Substack is that that last clause wouldn't get "Substack Jail" the way that Facebook might because the latter's algorithm has no clue about context. )
I'm reasonably sure that the sites mentioned in the Atlantic article would get booted sooner rather than later if the modified "trigger" were used, but with no ability to call it "censorship."
Robert, Thank You--for doing the same things you laud us for, and more!
Without your information steadying us with its pragmatic ring of truth, your availability, and your refusal to be distracted by fluff and nonsense, where would we be right now?
I don’t watch any news on TV (other than my two favorite people on MSNBC for a total of 15 minutes a day), or ANY social media at all. If you or HCR, or the few others I trust aren't writing about something, I just don’t need to waste my time on it.
Please keep calling it like it is--and inspiring us to do something for our country....
Among my family and friends who read the NY Times and other Mainstream Media, I am the only one with a positive attitude. It is because of this Newsletter. I'm thankful every day for it and for Robert's hard work.
Absolutely Kathleen! Good Irish name by the way. My sister's middle name.
I have a subscription to the WAPO, in case I run into a pay wall from someone's link. I haven't read it in years, with the exception of following recommended links.
Let me suggest three WaPo writers with whom you may disagree, somewhat and occasionally, but who often write worthwhile, insightful columns (in no particular order):
Ditto! My primary news sources are HCR , RH and "Democracy Now!". The former two are my go tos for factual and clear information that is backed with references and links. I look at "DN!" for balance, different perspectives and long form interviews with people and global news that would never make it to MSM. Even PBS Newhour these days has started to disappoint....
Sadly, NewsHour starting going downhill on Judy Woodruff's watch, with her chronic "both-sidesism' where one side (guess which?) was clearly in the wrong and/or not credible.
At the Substack blog of TCinLA, there was also a post about the pro-Trump bias in the NYT and the WP. In response to that, I posted the following, which is what I submitted to Substack through the App pissedconsumer.com, which is reportedly a bona fide site for offering criticism of media and businesses - it had a page for Substack that included a link to emailing their Customer Service. This is just as relevant to Mr. Hubbell calling out the NYT and WP for what the article in The Atlantic had to say.
***********************
The Terms of Service of Substack require that hosted content must not constitute hate speech.
This is not just an issue of posts that are "offensive" or "objectionable."
White supremacy is a belief system based upon hate directed at whichever groups any given white supremacist deems as non-white. This often takes the form of explicitly anti-Semitic tropes and statements. Any content that is explicitly Nazi is inconsistent with your site's rules. It is hate speech.
Profits to Substack deriving from such hate speech are corrupt and unacceptable.
The many white-supremacist, neo-Confederate, and explicitly Nazi newsletters on Substack must be shut down immediately. Examples include Andkon’s Reich Press, White-Papers, Turning Point Stocks, The Tribalist, People's Initiative of New England, and any sites that speak about the "Jewish Question." Any site with which Richard Spencer or Patrick Casey are affiliated is unacceptable (e.g., “Geniuses, in their most consequential forms, appear predominantly among Aryans … orbited by successful Jews” absolutely is trafficking in hate speech).
Use your First Amendment right NOT to publish hate speech.
Is Richard Spencer still spouting off his hate? As of last report he still lives in Whitefish, MT. It is difficult for my friend who sued Andrew Anglin of the Daily Stormer to see him. He and people who think like him are clearly a problem.
I just read the terms of service. I couldn't find anything about "hate speech" in general--just a "credible threat" of violence to a protected class. Government entities have a First Amendment problem with "hate speech" that doesn't involve action. But Substack CAN broaden the definition if it chooses to.
The New York Times letter did not answer David D’s mention of “false equivalency“ because it is a boilerplate letter, not one written by an individual as an answer to another individual letter. I would not be surprised if it weren’t AI generated.
You’re right, they’re probably getting so many letters like this, that they developed a response letter that they send to anyone who complains about that particular issue.
Just reading Today’s Edition today there are multiple stories covering a variety of subjects and it only the tip of the iceberg. We are all overwhelmed with the shire volume of the news and frankly have a difficult time distinguishing what is true and accurate and what is not. Added to this equation are the crazies who are on social platforms with a voice. The challenge is to shift through all of this and come out of it without surrendering to the noise. Watching the Roslyn Carter funeral and seeing Jimmy Carter and hearing Amy Carter read a letter sent when Jimmy Carter was overseas reminded me of the goodness of people and there are a lot of Carter’s out there and along with us together we all will do the right things to protect our democracy. It will take time and lots of hard work but we will get it done and we need to continue keeping the faith.
I had tried to find a way to contact CNN about their ridiculous story re Biden’s decision not to go to the Climate Conference, and I had a hard time finding a way to give them feedback. An email address I found where one could allegedly send feedback actually wasn’t accurate, and the long note I wrote bounced back to me. I was so frustrated!
I tried again to noodle around on Google and find an avenue to reach them and finally found a comment form. So I filled that out and wrong a detailed note there. I have no idea whether anyone will actually read it, but it felt good to write it,nevertheless.
Nancy, I’ve done the same through the CNN comment form and wondered if anyone would actually read. Perhaps if we flooded tips@cnn.com Well, we are giving them a “tip” ! 😏
Grateful Biden wasn’t at the Climate Conference where other leaders were promoting fossil fuels. Would have been yet another thing for MSM to criticize.
“ Files Suggest Climate Summit’s Leader Is Using Event to Promote Fossil Fuels”🔥
I think that we can do similar work to keep Substack honest as we do with MSM and journalists. How can we search Substack for the offending content, and report it to the platform’s management? If they won’t moderate their platform we can give them a little help.
Here is the link for Substack’s content guidelines:
On that content page, this is their paragraph on hate:
"Hate
Substack cannot be used to publish content or fund initiatives that incite violence based on protected classes. Offending behavior includes credible threats of physical harm to people based on their race, ethnicity, national origin, religion, sex, gender identity, sexual orientation, age, disability or medical condition."
And here is what they say about reporting this and other similarly offending content. It includes an email address for alerting them.
" If you encounter content that may be in breach of these guidelines or have any questions about them, you can email us at tos@substackinc.com."
Thanks for the link, Gary. I haven't had the time to investigate whether someone who decided to "follow me" (since I don't publish a newsletter, assuming it came from restacking a newsletter and included a comment when I restacked), but I had the weirdest "folloe" that put a chill down my spine: Lara Trump (included her photo). I'm assuming a bot or something. Anyone else have this happen?
Mostly "follows" come from folks who like your comments, as there is a place to click to do that. It seems mostly aimed at providing something stronger by way of serotonin hit than a simple "like." It did encourage me to start a not-much used page of my own.
But I was one of several/many who got followed by "Elon Musk." So what? It provided giggles. There is a handy "block" tool if good old Lara becomes a pain.
There was a spate of "Dan Rather" follows awhile back, too. Picture and everything but there was some give away... I can't remember what. Yes the creepy ones are uneasy-making but I can't figure a way they would be useful for info on you if you don't subscribe. It's probably more of an example of why sectioning off the misinformation and hate isn't sufficient: They are actively fishing out here for gullible guppies!
I get follows now and then and sometimes they alert me to substack newsletters by people with similar interests or attitudes and I tend to subscribe if that seems to be the case. I have a plethora of substack articles that come in each day and if one is meh I can "burn" it and if I burn the same one too many times my computer learns to stop showing me that one. It's a handy way to sample and prune without committing or hurting anyone's feelings.
Re: polls. A friend received a call from a pollster whose first question was "what level of education do you have?" When friend answered college graduate, pollster immediately hung up.
I Googled the following: <Substack accounts that include hate speech and white supremacy>, and quickly found an article from the Anti-Defamation league that listed numerous such accounts (I counted 16).
I am sure that a few extra searches for key words and phrases typical of hate speech and white supremacy, along with the word "Substack", would find more. You do not have to visit the websites to identify those that are beyond offensive and represent hate speech, which is unavoidably dangerous and inevitably leads to violence.
I always love when I feel like we have a mind-meld. Some thoughts:
1. Israel/Hamas -- I am.a longtime Times of Israel fan/reader and I am so glad you have found them and enjoy their coverage which I find to be both fair and intelligent, especially about the war. Not much to add there beyond an observation I read the other day on how never being seen as the victim is a key element of the Israeli mindset--the country's founding ethos is that here was a place where Jews could shed the downtrodden victim status of the European shtetls and North African ghettos and be proud and free in their own country. Which is a very long-winded way of explaining why the Israelis are so bad at PR, even the survivors of the Oct 7th massacre are reluctant to portray themselves as victims or to show how much emotional pain they are in--the ones who can talk about fighting back are the ones who get trotted out for the press, which admittedly makes for a less sympathetic story and tends to reinforce the notion of Israel as aggressor. Versus the other side, where the opposite seems to be true.
2. NYT and Biden: I had left a comment on yesterday's blog about that very article you cite, which, mind you, sits at the very top of the NYT website. There's nothing new in it. We know that some Muslim-Americans are not happy with Biden's support of Israel. We've known that for almost two months. And a handful of young staffers, "predominantly Arab or Muslim-American"--that is what, at most a dozen out of thousands of White House staffers? Again, nothing we didn't already know and not front page news. I suspect a greater percentage of young staffers are unhappy about the snack selection in the cafeteria. It sounded like the author herself was unhappy with the President and decided to work backwards from there. My biggest issue with the NYT is that we have no equivalent of Right Wing Media, and so, save for a few substacks, it can seem like everyone is anti-Biden. (And Right Wing Media is truly the Upside Down, where Jan 6th insurrectionists are "political prisoners" being held as hostages by the "corrupt Communist Biden Crime Family." (That is not an attempt at humor either, that's pretty much verbatim.)
3. The Kochs and Haley: It's been fascinating to see the Big Business wing of the GOP try and find their Trump Killer. Even more fascinating to watch is how they've completely given up on DeSantis for all the reasons that were obvious from the start (zero charisma being the main one.) The WSJ in particular has been tripping over itself to publish pro-Haley articles and op-eds.
4. Musk and Social Media: I go back and forth about Musk, whether he actually believes any of what he's saying or doing, or if he just says and does things because he knows he'll get the biggest reaction from people. Problem being, if he is doing it as some sort of performance art, he's missing that so many do take him seriously. As for Nazi Substacks, I am not surprised. People who believe in all sorts of hate and conspiracy need to talk about it and convince each other that they are the ones who aren't crazy. If you think the earth is flat, then of course you are going to want a place to discuss it with your fellow travelers. Whereas people who think the earth is round don't ever really see the need to reconsider that belief so they don't participate in "round earth" blogs...
Alan, as you probably know Israelis are some of the happiest people in the world. They work hard and have a national service requirement: Males and Females. When they finish college and their military service they are considered some of the hirable people in the world.
In this country people see themselves as victims. We are turning into a nation of crybabies and blamers. Whatever happened to the self help movement. America use to be the land of possibilities and hope. Now so many people are quick to blame their past on their present day problems or another group of people. People need to take responsibility for their own feelings and choices. With respect to psychoanalyst Viktor Frankl who survived the concentration camps...he called his school Logotherapy.
I do think that providing James Comer or Gym Jordan with public hearings is a good MAGA disinfectant. The fact that James Comer appears to have personal smarmy business dealings that sound, from a distance, to be in the same boat as Hunter Biden's brings a pleasing amount of schadenfreude to the table.
Yesterday I attended an in-person interview of AG Sulzberger, current publisher of The NY Times. After ascertaining, by a show of hands, that virtually all 200 or so people in the room were Times readers, he quipped that he would bet each of us had at least 3 criticisms of Times coverage.
Well here’s some of mine…. The other day I was angered by an article whose headline said the economy was doing poorly and would be hurtful to Biden’s bid for reelection. The body of the article acknowledged that people were negative about the economy even though it’s doing quite well. Completely misleading headline!
Today’s outrage is again a knock on Biden for the economy, in a headline, see below, about a completely unrelated story…. It seems they are going out of their way to portray Biden negatively!
“The National Christmas Tree Fell Over. Insert Metaphor Here.
Does it symbolize President Biden’s economic policies, or the pressures of the season?”
I absolutely hate the "economy" pieces. reason being, who knows what people are talking about when they talk about the "economy." It's too vague and too personal. Your definition of the 'economy" is not my definition of the "economy" is not an econimists definition of the "economy." Add to that the tricky language in these poll questions and it's a mess, IMO.
Writing to the NYT and getting an answer is an admirable but ineffective way to influence it. Unless the letter and answer are published somewhere it remains private. Better to use social
media where the criticism and response, if any, can be seen by millions. And the response can be criticize.d. Calls and letters are easily handled by institutions. Social media is a better channel for affecting their conduct.
I also want to add that the NY Times response did not own up to the amount of coverage on Biden's age, which has been considerable. They are not focusing solely on his policies and administration.
I don't feel they owned up to anything. And I agree with the reader who said this was a kind of "form letter" which is insulting. However, it does appear that many people are complaining and canceling their subscriptions. I told the person I spoke to when I canceled my subscription why I canceled it. And I asked him to move that along up the chain. It felt good!
Cancelling a subscription may feel "good" but it isn't really an effective means of protest--you are a fraction of a drop in a very big bucket. And you will miss out on the GOOD coverage, and opinions, published by the paper. It does exist.
Better to write--particularly about misleading headlines. THAT the NYT can do something about. The actual writers of the stories must be fuming when what they say is misrepresented. I wonder if it is possible to write to THEM to buck them up to make their own complaints.
Somewhat along the lines of Susan Linehan’s comment:
Unhappy with a WaPo op-ed on the desired outcome of the Israel-Hamas war, I wrote the following Letter; miraculously, WaPo published it (the text follows, below)
“David Ignatius’s thoughtful Nov. 19 op-ed, “In Gaza, the hard search for tomorrow,” missed the most revealing analogy for the Israel-Gaza War: The Allied war against Germany in World War II. The analogy is pertinent and compelling because of the physical devastation and the Allied determination to change the mind-set of the defeated citizenry (deNazification).
“The pertinence of devastation and rebuilding are obvious. What might not be so apparent is that, as with the physical rebuilding of West Germany, the physical rebuilding of Gaza need not be prolonged.
“The issue of mind-set is even more important and more complex. Gazans – all Palestinians, in fact – must shed Jew-hatred, just as Germans shed Nazi philosophies, became peaceable and ultimately integrated with their neighbors. It required an occupation of Germany after World War II; such an occupation – by or controlled by Israel – will be required after this Israel-Gaza War. And more maturity by Israel governing classes will be critical.
“Nations must support Israeli efforts – but not control – them; the United Nations, which has been complicit in Palestinian Jew-hatred, must be kept at arms length or even farther away from this healing process.
“Although the concept of occupation has seemed anathema to the shallow liberalism of many statespersons and pundits, in reality it is critical for the success of genuine liberalism and peaceable behavior. Lasting peace and genuine democracy in the Middle East are at stake.”
I agree 100% that the Nazis are the best analogy for Hamas. And the Soviet Red Army's victory in the Battle of Berlin resulted in massive loss of lives and left the city largely reduced to rubble.
But as I have noted earlier, it was the fact that the world condemned the Nazis with one voice that made the Germans ashamed to have ever been Nazis. That is not happening with Hamas.
Quite the opposite seems to be occurring: It seems that much of “the world” is taking Hamas’s side, either explicitly or indirectly (underhandedly?) by condemning Israel’s military responses as “excessive” (without citing criteria), by pushing “genocide” characterizations that have nothing to do with actual genocide, or by calling for peace talks before Hamas is thoroughly defeated.
I have copied and pasted most of the Atlantic article over at That's Another Fine Mess. When you read it, you will find that Substack has Terms of Service - that everyone here is supposed to abide by and they are supposed to enforce - which bans "hate speech." They have the power to turn off the Nazis tonight. And because the Nazis and their subscribers have all violated the Terms of Service, Substack doesn't need to repay any of them a penny. No one's "First Amendment rights" are violated when a non-governmental body tells someone their views are unwelcome and they are also unwelcome because of their views.
I have urged my readers at That's Another Fine Mess to write to Substack at support@substack.com and tell them how much we appreciate Substack and how happy we would all be if they were to use the powers they already have to rid the site of Nazis, neo-Confederates and all the other White Supremacist pondscum. (Don't use "pondscum" with them) My readers have also restacked the post, shared it at FB, sent it to friends and shared it with Substack comrades for them to pass on. You can do that too.
We can make this viral and we can convince the Silly Con Valley boys that however much they're making off the Nazis, it won't buy them enough soap to clean off the stain, and will harm them with the people they all actually want to have here (they promote our side in their publicity, not the Nazis).
Here's the post. You too can put on your hip waders and clean out the clogged drains here.
https://tcinla757.substack.com/p/substack-has-a-nazi-problem
I very much appreciate you emphasizing this story about Nazis on substack as does Mr. Hubbely by directing us to the Atlantic article, but the much bigger problem the number of followers of Nazi propaganda, lies and sentiments.
We can boycott and protest the social media platforms, but what do we do about the readers?
The answer is education (civics, history, etc) but as would be necessary for the growth of evil movements, education has been and continues to be the focus of attack by the bad guys. If we think things are bad now, wait till today’s children are adults given what they are intentionally not being taught. The attacks on truth in education are part of a long game.
Yes, education is the key but it's an ongoing life long process. I've seen people who seemed to be fairly liberal slowly boil over the course of the Trump years until they embraced some pretty awful hateful beliefs. I hear folks who say those ideas must have been under the surface all along, but I don't agree that is always the case. We aren't born with our beliefs and we alter them throughout a lifetime based on what we think we see. I suspect it's just one way for people to comfort themselves that their own beliefs are immutable and thus will always be just.
News articles and social media are education. Voting adults are constantly learning of new events and drawing new conclusions from them, and listening to opinions and deciding how to adjust their world views based on what they think are facts and solid opinions. I agree our youth need better lessons on assessing information, but for now and for this election we need as little misinformation and hate filled biased opinion as possible to produce a better educated adult voting public.
“Education” is offered as the cure-all. That elides the issue of the *content* and competence of the “education”.
What’s important is making the education competently structured and delivered.
I wrote them, adding mention of the young men who were shot in Burlington VT recently, one of whom faces life in a wheelchair, for their attire and foreign language.
Oh; it’s so awful. We live in Stowe- not far from Burly. It’s sickening regardless of where it happens but this is here.. and so many of us are in shock. This doesn’t happen here. I know, I know… famous last words.
I am mortified that the shooter plead not guilty. What the devil??????? You do this atrocious thing for some sick ass prejudice reason and then you plead not guilty. WHAT? I guess no courage for the conviction. GEEZUZ on a bike.
Pleading “not guilty” is how a person preserves their constitutional right to trial by jury, not a statement about their conduct. It is a procedural step, nothing more.
Thanks, TC!
I took your advice/request to heart and sent the following email to tos@substack.com:
Substack:
Your own Terms of Use state:
"Substack cannot be used to publish content or fund initiatives that incite violence based on protected classes. Offending behavior includes credible threats of physical harm to people based on their race, ethnicity, national origin, religion, sex, gender identity, sexual orientation, age, disability or medical condition."
You are currently hosting (and monetizing) numerous hate groups and individuals who are or were part of them. Those individuals/groups often practice "stochastic terrorism" by way of their hateful words and images. That "stochastic terrorism," in turn, often results in violence against people. Examples include Andkons Reich Press, White-Papers, Turning Point Stocks, The Tribalist, People's Initiative of New England, and sites that speak about the "Jewish Question." Sites with which Richard Spencer or Patrick Casey are affiliated have frequently espoused hate speech against non-White and Jewish peoples (e.g., Geniuses, in their most consequential forms, appear predominantly among Aryans orbited by successful Jews absolutely is trafficking in hate speech).
Please use your First Amendment right NOT to publish hate speech and enforce your own Terms of Use by shutting down people who openly espouse Nazism, fascism, violence in any form or discrimination against any person or group of people based on their skin color, race, religious beliefs, sex, social relationships or party affiliations.
Thank you.
Excellent!
Well said and thank you! I will write a note to Substack today. I was just complaining to them about something else, so I’m sure they’ll be happy to hear from me again. 😊 The neo-Nazi problem is not just the issue of writers publishing newsletters for subscribers who enjoy Nazi propaganda. These trolls, for lack of a better word, show up in the comment sections of other newsletters just to harass and annoy people. This mostly happens to writers who allow people to comment without paying. I’ve seen dozens of neo-Nazi outbreaks on Robert Reich’s newsletter, and recently, Rick Wilson had a neo-Nazi troll outbreak and had to ban a number of people. It’s disgusting really. I appreciate these writers allowing people to join in the conversation who perhaps cannot afford a subscription, but it does leave them vulnerable to these invasions.
At least there is a mechanism for banning trolls.
Email to Substack sent! Thank you, TC.
I received an auto reply with "helpful" links to remedies like subscription reimbursements and so on, but with the hopeful bit at the end that if those links didn't quite do it, there is "no need" to continue to harass them (my words) because staff will deal with whatever:
"Still need help? No need to reply to this email; a Support team member will reply if we can provide further assistance. Due to high ticket volume during the holidays, we're temporarily unable to respond to all support inquiries. We will only be able to respond if direct action is needed on your publication or account."
I take that to mean I won't expect to hear back but that someone will at least glance at my email. Surely someone will say to someone else when they drop by to check in that "there sure seems to be a surge in complaints about Nazi substack articles today". That's a beginning; someone notices a slight shift in the sand, a gentle swelling. Hopefully.
Read it. Excellent. Complaint department notified.
I think this is great and let’s see how they respond.
Thank you!
done!
I was curious about whether the Nazi Substacks actually required payment for comments. A lot of sites don't. Do neo-Nazis actually PAY to rant? Of the 16 Katz found, how many is "many?" He describes one ( Casey) who was banned by the company that processes the payments (Stripe) but used a "third party" processor. Perhaps Substack can kick the issue down the line by requiring use of Stripe.
I am of two minds here, since I do support the Supreme Court decision in Skokie, which held that a city could not refuse a permit for a neo-Nazi march simply because they didn't like the content of what the party stood for--there had to be evidence that the march would lead to actual violence. That was a case involving a government entity (the town of Skokie) but the principle could be applied by a private social media company. That seems to be what Substack's official position is:
"Substack cannot be used to publish content or fund initiatives that incite violence based on protected classes. Offending behavior includes credible threats of physical harm to people based on their race, ethnicity, national origin, religion, sex, gender identity, sexual orientation, age, disability or medical condition." Content Guidelines, Hate.
These sites do promote hatred (as did the American Nazi Party in Skokie) but how often do they actually call for violence--the apparent trigger for Substack? One approach could be a monetary penalty approach: for each violation of the policy (even if only occasionally) the percentage Substack takes is HIGHER. At least this could squelch the income flow to those sites. The question then becomes: which do you dislike more: the ranter making money or Substack making money.
Patrolling this would likely be the brave efforts of folks to GO to these sites and report anything advocating actual violence.
It is clear that the rise of hatred has arisen exponentially since Skokie (1977). We saw in Charlottesville how promotion of hatred can slip pretty easily into actual violence. In these days of stochastic terrorism a stronger Content Guideline could include simply advocating physical harm to a protected class (Richard Hanania's stuff would seem to qualify), not just showing a "credible threat."
But bottom line, I do hope that 16 or so out of 17000 plus paid writers doesn't discourage people of good will from using Substack, both reading and writing for it. If that happens, to coin a phrase "the terrorists win." The only approach worth taking is to FIGHT the worst of it in the ways you suggest. The response David D got from the NYT shows that momentum in complaints does get the attention of responsible hosts.
Push comes to shove, at least this is IDENTIFYING the white nationalist bigots and I suspect the FBI is watching--as sadly, subscribing to Robert or to Heather Cox Richardson may well be watched by an FBI reconstituted under trump 2.0. It is ABOVE all our job to keep trump 2.0 from happening. Pockets of folks preaching to the converted who are will to pay to be preached to are minor in comparison to that need. What Katz describes is going unlikely to create a mass of sudden trump supporters, most of whom have never heard of Substack. The problems of the MSM and false equivalency are much more of a problem.
The Skokie decision involved a GOVERNMENT agency. They are subject to the First Amendment. You, and I, and Substack, and everyone else, does not have to abide the presence of scum, and we are not violating any rights the scum may think they have, by kicking them in the ass before the door hits them on the way out.
I know the first Amendment is government only; I mentioned that. Substack doesn't HAVE to host pond scum, but if they want to approach the spirit of the First Amendment there are modifications they could make to their policies that wouldn't meet First Amendment level scrutiny but still draws a line short of simply booting out. One is to broaden its community standards to actually INCLUDE hate speech, not just the incitement to violence that might arise from it. The idea is to counter the accusations of "censorship of the right" by being able to point to specific instances of the reasons for the booting.
For example going on about "grooming children" is stupid and wrong, but not nearly at the level of "blacks should be sterilized because they pollute the gene pool."
(One thing I like about Substack is that that last clause wouldn't get "Substack Jail" the way that Facebook might because the latter's algorithm has no clue about context. )
I'm reasonably sure that the sites mentioned in the Atlantic article would get booted sooner rather than later if the modified "trigger" were used, but with no ability to call it "censorship."
Robert, Thank You--for doing the same things you laud us for, and more!
Without your information steadying us with its pragmatic ring of truth, your availability, and your refusal to be distracted by fluff and nonsense, where would we be right now?
I don’t watch any news on TV (other than my two favorite people on MSNBC for a total of 15 minutes a day), or ANY social media at all. If you or HCR, or the few others I trust aren't writing about something, I just don’t need to waste my time on it.
Please keep calling it like it is--and inspiring us to do something for our country....
Among my family and friends who read the NY Times and other Mainstream Media, I am the only one with a positive attitude. It is because of this Newsletter. I'm thankful every day for it and for Robert's hard work.
Absolutely Kathleen! Good Irish name by the way. My sister's middle name.
I have a subscription to the WAPO, in case I run into a pay wall from someone's link. I haven't read it in years, with the exception of following recommended links.
I'm scared to....
Let me suggest three WaPo writers with whom you may disagree, somewhat and occasionally, but who often write worthwhile, insightful columns (in no particular order):
Karen Tumulty;
E J Dionne;
Jennifer Rubin
Ditto! My primary news sources are HCR , RH and "Democracy Now!". The former two are my go tos for factual and clear information that is backed with references and links. I look at "DN!" for balance, different perspectives and long form interviews with people and global news that would never make it to MSM. Even PBS Newhour these days has started to disappoint....
Sadly, NewsHour starting going downhill on Judy Woodruff's watch, with her chronic "both-sidesism' where one side (guess which?) was clearly in the wrong and/or not credible.
At the Substack blog of TCinLA, there was also a post about the pro-Trump bias in the NYT and the WP. In response to that, I posted the following, which is what I submitted to Substack through the App pissedconsumer.com, which is reportedly a bona fide site for offering criticism of media and businesses - it had a page for Substack that included a link to emailing their Customer Service. This is just as relevant to Mr. Hubbell calling out the NYT and WP for what the article in The Atlantic had to say.
***********************
The Terms of Service of Substack require that hosted content must not constitute hate speech.
This is not just an issue of posts that are "offensive" or "objectionable."
White supremacy is a belief system based upon hate directed at whichever groups any given white supremacist deems as non-white. This often takes the form of explicitly anti-Semitic tropes and statements. Any content that is explicitly Nazi is inconsistent with your site's rules. It is hate speech.
Profits to Substack deriving from such hate speech are corrupt and unacceptable.
The many white-supremacist, neo-Confederate, and explicitly Nazi newsletters on Substack must be shut down immediately. Examples include Andkon’s Reich Press, White-Papers, Turning Point Stocks, The Tribalist, People's Initiative of New England, and any sites that speak about the "Jewish Question." Any site with which Richard Spencer or Patrick Casey are affiliated is unacceptable (e.g., “Geniuses, in their most consequential forms, appear predominantly among Aryans … orbited by successful Jews” absolutely is trafficking in hate speech).
Use your First Amendment right NOT to publish hate speech.
Thank you for this, Gary. I hope its OK that I borrowed heavily from your work in sending my own email!
Is Richard Spencer still spouting off his hate? As of last report he still lives in Whitefish, MT. It is difficult for my friend who sued Andrew Anglin of the Daily Stormer to see him. He and people who think like him are clearly a problem.
I just read the terms of service. I couldn't find anything about "hate speech" in general--just a "credible threat" of violence to a protected class. Government entities have a First Amendment problem with "hate speech" that doesn't involve action. But Substack CAN broaden the definition if it chooses to.
Trust me, you don't want to go to those sites.
The New York Times letter did not answer David D’s mention of “false equivalency“ because it is a boilerplate letter, not one written by an individual as an answer to another individual letter. I would not be surprised if it weren’t AI generated.
It reads like ChatGPT bushwa.
You’re right, they’re probably getting so many letters like this, that they developed a response letter that they send to anyone who complains about that particular issue.
That's better than the absolute silence that my earlier complaints receive.
I want to add my Thank You! to all the readers who took the time to write to the media. You are champions.
Me too!
Just reading Today’s Edition today there are multiple stories covering a variety of subjects and it only the tip of the iceberg. We are all overwhelmed with the shire volume of the news and frankly have a difficult time distinguishing what is true and accurate and what is not. Added to this equation are the crazies who are on social platforms with a voice. The challenge is to shift through all of this and come out of it without surrendering to the noise. Watching the Roslyn Carter funeral and seeing Jimmy Carter and hearing Amy Carter read a letter sent when Jimmy Carter was overseas reminded me of the goodness of people and there are a lot of Carter’s out there and along with us together we all will do the right things to protect our democracy. It will take time and lots of hard work but we will get it done and we need to continue keeping the faith.
I had tried to find a way to contact CNN about their ridiculous story re Biden’s decision not to go to the Climate Conference, and I had a hard time finding a way to give them feedback. An email address I found where one could allegedly send feedback actually wasn’t accurate, and the long note I wrote bounced back to me. I was so frustrated!
I tried again to noodle around on Google and find an avenue to reach them and finally found a comment form. So I filled that out and wrong a detailed note there. I have no idea whether anyone will actually read it, but it felt good to write it,nevertheless.
Nancy, I’ve done the same through the CNN comment form and wondered if anyone would actually read. Perhaps if we flooded tips@cnn.com Well, we are giving them a “tip” ! 😏
https://www.cnn.com/tips/
Grateful Biden wasn’t at the Climate Conference where other leaders were promoting fossil fuels. Would have been yet another thing for MSM to criticize.
“ Files Suggest Climate Summit’s Leader Is Using Event to Promote Fossil Fuels”🔥
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/28/climate/uae-cop28-documents-al-jaber.html?unlocked_article_code=1.CE0.kdkW.1OvCPkwX1BZU&smid=url-share
CNN doesn't want to be "reached."
I think that we can do similar work to keep Substack honest as we do with MSM and journalists. How can we search Substack for the offending content, and report it to the platform’s management? If they won’t moderate their platform we can give them a little help.
Here is the link for Substack’s content guidelines:
https://substack.com/content
On that content page, this is their paragraph on hate:
"Hate
Substack cannot be used to publish content or fund initiatives that incite violence based on protected classes. Offending behavior includes credible threats of physical harm to people based on their race, ethnicity, national origin, religion, sex, gender identity, sexual orientation, age, disability or medical condition."
And here is what they say about reporting this and other similarly offending content. It includes an email address for alerting them.
" If you encounter content that may be in breach of these guidelines or have any questions about them, you can email us at tos@substackinc.com."
Thanks for the link, Gary. I haven't had the time to investigate whether someone who decided to "follow me" (since I don't publish a newsletter, assuming it came from restacking a newsletter and included a comment when I restacked), but I had the weirdest "folloe" that put a chill down my spine: Lara Trump (included her photo). I'm assuming a bot or something. Anyone else have this happen?
Mostly "follows" come from folks who like your comments, as there is a place to click to do that. It seems mostly aimed at providing something stronger by way of serotonin hit than a simple "like." It did encourage me to start a not-much used page of my own.
But I was one of several/many who got followed by "Elon Musk." So what? It provided giggles. There is a handy "block" tool if good old Lara becomes a pain.
Thanks, Susan; appreciate the info. Will look for the block if it becomes an issue.
There was a spate of "Dan Rather" follows awhile back, too. Picture and everything but there was some give away... I can't remember what. Yes the creepy ones are uneasy-making but I can't figure a way they would be useful for info on you if you don't subscribe. It's probably more of an example of why sectioning off the misinformation and hate isn't sufficient: They are actively fishing out here for gullible guppies!
I get follows now and then and sometimes they alert me to substack newsletters by people with similar interests or attitudes and I tend to subscribe if that seems to be the case. I have a plethora of substack articles that come in each day and if one is meh I can "burn" it and if I burn the same one too many times my computer learns to stop showing me that one. It's a handy way to sample and prune without committing or hurting anyone's feelings.
Many thanks; it was so weird to click on the follow and see her photo. But I realized someone could be spoofing. Haven't seen since. Thankfully
Yes, I've had it happen twice.
No photos and strange names that led to what I considered white nationalist
religious propaganda.
Oops on the typo: follow
(can't edit from my tablet since changes to platform last winter).
The "folloe" made it even more sketchy haha!
Very helpful. I sent an email to oth support and tos.
Thank you Robert for your daily efforts. Thank you to everyone who reads this newsletter and even more thanks to all of you that take action.
Re: polls. A friend received a call from a pollster whose first question was "what level of education do you have?" When friend answered college graduate, pollster immediately hung up.
No one should give away any personal info on an unsolicited phone call.
OMG!
I Googled the following: <Substack accounts that include hate speech and white supremacy>, and quickly found an article from the Anti-Defamation league that listed numerous such accounts (I counted 16).
This is the link for that article: https://www.adl.org/resources/blog/antisemitism-false-information-and-hate-speech-find-home-substack-0
I am sure that a few extra searches for key words and phrases typical of hate speech and white supremacy, along with the word "Substack", would find more. You do not have to visit the websites to identify those that are beyond offensive and represent hate speech, which is unavoidably dangerous and inevitably leads to violence.
I always love when I feel like we have a mind-meld. Some thoughts:
1. Israel/Hamas -- I am.a longtime Times of Israel fan/reader and I am so glad you have found them and enjoy their coverage which I find to be both fair and intelligent, especially about the war. Not much to add there beyond an observation I read the other day on how never being seen as the victim is a key element of the Israeli mindset--the country's founding ethos is that here was a place where Jews could shed the downtrodden victim status of the European shtetls and North African ghettos and be proud and free in their own country. Which is a very long-winded way of explaining why the Israelis are so bad at PR, even the survivors of the Oct 7th massacre are reluctant to portray themselves as victims or to show how much emotional pain they are in--the ones who can talk about fighting back are the ones who get trotted out for the press, which admittedly makes for a less sympathetic story and tends to reinforce the notion of Israel as aggressor. Versus the other side, where the opposite seems to be true.
2. NYT and Biden: I had left a comment on yesterday's blog about that very article you cite, which, mind you, sits at the very top of the NYT website. There's nothing new in it. We know that some Muslim-Americans are not happy with Biden's support of Israel. We've known that for almost two months. And a handful of young staffers, "predominantly Arab or Muslim-American"--that is what, at most a dozen out of thousands of White House staffers? Again, nothing we didn't already know and not front page news. I suspect a greater percentage of young staffers are unhappy about the snack selection in the cafeteria. It sounded like the author herself was unhappy with the President and decided to work backwards from there. My biggest issue with the NYT is that we have no equivalent of Right Wing Media, and so, save for a few substacks, it can seem like everyone is anti-Biden. (And Right Wing Media is truly the Upside Down, where Jan 6th insurrectionists are "political prisoners" being held as hostages by the "corrupt Communist Biden Crime Family." (That is not an attempt at humor either, that's pretty much verbatim.)
3. The Kochs and Haley: It's been fascinating to see the Big Business wing of the GOP try and find their Trump Killer. Even more fascinating to watch is how they've completely given up on DeSantis for all the reasons that were obvious from the start (zero charisma being the main one.) The WSJ in particular has been tripping over itself to publish pro-Haley articles and op-eds.
4. Musk and Social Media: I go back and forth about Musk, whether he actually believes any of what he's saying or doing, or if he just says and does things because he knows he'll get the biggest reaction from people. Problem being, if he is doing it as some sort of performance art, he's missing that so many do take him seriously. As for Nazi Substacks, I am not surprised. People who believe in all sorts of hate and conspiracy need to talk about it and convince each other that they are the ones who aren't crazy. If you think the earth is flat, then of course you are going to want a place to discuss it with your fellow travelers. Whereas people who think the earth is round don't ever really see the need to reconsider that belief so they don't participate in "round earth" blogs...
Alan, as you probably know Israelis are some of the happiest people in the world. They work hard and have a national service requirement: Males and Females. When they finish college and their military service they are considered some of the hirable people in the world.
In this country people see themselves as victims. We are turning into a nation of crybabies and blamers. Whatever happened to the self help movement. America use to be the land of possibilities and hope. Now so many people are quick to blame their past on their present day problems or another group of people. People need to take responsibility for their own feelings and choices. With respect to psychoanalyst Viktor Frankl who survived the concentration camps...he called his school Logotherapy.
I do think that providing James Comer or Gym Jordan with public hearings is a good MAGA disinfectant. The fact that James Comer appears to have personal smarmy business dealings that sound, from a distance, to be in the same boat as Hunter Biden's brings a pleasing amount of schadenfreude to the table.
Yesterday I attended an in-person interview of AG Sulzberger, current publisher of The NY Times. After ascertaining, by a show of hands, that virtually all 200 or so people in the room were Times readers, he quipped that he would bet each of us had at least 3 criticisms of Times coverage.
Well here’s some of mine…. The other day I was angered by an article whose headline said the economy was doing poorly and would be hurtful to Biden’s bid for reelection. The body of the article acknowledged that people were negative about the economy even though it’s doing quite well. Completely misleading headline!
Today’s outrage is again a knock on Biden for the economy, in a headline, see below, about a completely unrelated story…. It seems they are going out of their way to portray Biden negatively!
“The National Christmas Tree Fell Over. Insert Metaphor Here.
Does it symbolize President Biden’s economic policies, or the pressures of the season?”
I absolutely hate the "economy" pieces. reason being, who knows what people are talking about when they talk about the "economy." It's too vague and too personal. Your definition of the 'economy" is not my definition of the "economy" is not an econimists definition of the "economy." Add to that the tricky language in these poll questions and it's a mess, IMO.
Writing to the NYT and getting an answer is an admirable but ineffective way to influence it. Unless the letter and answer are published somewhere it remains private. Better to use social
media where the criticism and response, if any, can be seen by millions. And the response can be criticize.d. Calls and letters are easily handled by institutions. Social media is a better channel for affecting their conduct.
I also want to add that the NY Times response did not own up to the amount of coverage on Biden's age, which has been considerable. They are not focusing solely on his policies and administration.
I don't feel they owned up to anything. And I agree with the reader who said this was a kind of "form letter" which is insulting. However, it does appear that many people are complaining and canceling their subscriptions. I told the person I spoke to when I canceled my subscription why I canceled it. And I asked him to move that along up the chain. It felt good!
Cancelling a subscription may feel "good" but it isn't really an effective means of protest--you are a fraction of a drop in a very big bucket. And you will miss out on the GOOD coverage, and opinions, published by the paper. It does exist.
Better to write--particularly about misleading headlines. THAT the NYT can do something about. The actual writers of the stories must be fuming when what they say is misrepresented. I wonder if it is possible to write to THEM to buck them up to make their own complaints.
Somewhat along the lines of Susan Linehan’s comment:
Unhappy with a WaPo op-ed on the desired outcome of the Israel-Hamas war, I wrote the following Letter; miraculously, WaPo published it (the text follows, below)
“David Ignatius’s thoughtful Nov. 19 op-ed, “In Gaza, the hard search for tomorrow,” missed the most revealing analogy for the Israel-Gaza War: The Allied war against Germany in World War II. The analogy is pertinent and compelling because of the physical devastation and the Allied determination to change the mind-set of the defeated citizenry (deNazification).
“The pertinence of devastation and rebuilding are obvious. What might not be so apparent is that, as with the physical rebuilding of West Germany, the physical rebuilding of Gaza need not be prolonged.
“The issue of mind-set is even more important and more complex. Gazans – all Palestinians, in fact – must shed Jew-hatred, just as Germans shed Nazi philosophies, became peaceable and ultimately integrated with their neighbors. It required an occupation of Germany after World War II; such an occupation – by or controlled by Israel – will be required after this Israel-Gaza War. And more maturity by Israel governing classes will be critical.
“Nations must support Israeli efforts – but not control – them; the United Nations, which has been complicit in Palestinian Jew-hatred, must be kept at arms length or even farther away from this healing process.
“Although the concept of occupation has seemed anathema to the shallow liberalism of many statespersons and pundits, in reality it is critical for the success of genuine liberalism and peaceable behavior. Lasting peace and genuine democracy in the Middle East are at stake.”
I agree 100% that the Nazis are the best analogy for Hamas. And the Soviet Red Army's victory in the Battle of Berlin resulted in massive loss of lives and left the city largely reduced to rubble.
But as I have noted earlier, it was the fact that the world condemned the Nazis with one voice that made the Germans ashamed to have ever been Nazis. That is not happening with Hamas.
Quite the opposite seems to be occurring: It seems that much of “the world” is taking Hamas’s side, either explicitly or indirectly (underhandedly?) by condemning Israel’s military responses as “excessive” (without citing criteria), by pushing “genocide” characterizations that have nothing to do with actual genocide, or by calling for peace talks before Hamas is thoroughly defeated.