Robert, your analysis of the capitulation by Senate Democrats is exactly right. Out of the jaws of victory on Oct 18 and Nov 4, we achieved defeat. Democratic Senate leadership and the weak-willed Senators of NH and Nevada, should be ashamed and replaced. Why are we always taking two steps forward and three back?
Initially I was angry about the switch of the few Democrats but as I give it some thought I understand where these five are coming from ……they have to look out from their constituents.. I also am a firm believer in that good comes out of things we are not expecting. So something good will come from this. So forward ho !!
It's all very well to say we need new leadership, but who would be better able to lead than Schumer. As Bernie Sanders said last night, nobody wants to be Senate Democratic Leader. He refused to condemn Schumer or other individuals. While I agree Democrats should have stood firm, a lot of people are suffering now and that can't be discounted.
i appreciate the dialogue here from all you who are way more informed than I. Since RH, HCR, and RR are my major daily guides in all this. And since attending intelligently, even when one has the time, still borders on being crazy making, I'm declaring clear agreement with RH. Thanking you again, RH, for another wise, fair, well-reasoned, informed, informative, generous, and, for me, compelling opinion/position. i have nothing beyond my appreciation to add to the complexity already discussed. And I will watch Lawrence whom i greatly respect as well.
Thank you, Robert. You explain the situation very well. I appreciate your attempt to present different sides of this issue. You do this well. Also I listened to Lawrence O’Donnell’s take but that did not change my thoughts. I hope that people who listened to Lawrence’s take will also listen to Jen Rubin’s discussion with Ezra Levin: https://open.substack.com/pub/contrarian/p/incandescent-rage-ezra-levin-on-the?r=biccw&utm_medium=ios. Ezra says because these are not normal times we need to elect Democrats who are fighters! If we are ever to get out of this mess, Democrats must learn to fight back against the authoritarian leader. I’m with Ezra; we must fight back and our leaders must lead the fight.
Yes, I agree we need leaders who will fight. What about the next battle? Or when it comes to fighting for election integrity? Or when the election doesn't go the way "he" wants it to. Every fight matters.
I think it’s important to realize that “The Democrats” did not surrender-most Democrats voted against the reopening package. That included Senator Schumer who somehow has become the focus of anger. That anger should be directed against Angus King and the 7 surrendering Democrats. If the Senate Democrats had had a different leader it would have gone the same way; leaders simply do not have the tools to force individual senators to vote a particular way.
I recommend Dan Rather's take: "Let’s hold on and take a steadying breath.
To understand what happened in Washington on Sunday night, you must recognize one immutable fact: the president was never going to negotiate. This is a game to him. The suffering of the citizenry is just part of his playbook.
The principle of least interest holds that the person who cares least in a relationship has the most power. That is Donald Trump in a nutshell. His repellent disregard for anyone but himself gives him power. It makes him a dogmatic opponent, one with few ways to leverage."
I don't think one should deny the outrage. I certainly felt it on first hearing of the news. But I also think that there is much that the Dems can use to continue to send the message both about the current crises AND the rule of law. The skepticism of the Extremes of the tariff argument suggests that trump is approaching a bridge too far at the highest court, and the lower courts continue to act to constrain trump's lawlessness.
I continue to be convinced that any lesson trump has "learned" about hostages and lawlessness is nothing new; he didn't need this to reinforce his continuing lawlessness. Nor do I think any obstruction by the GOP is likely to long be a "wildly successful strategy." Not if the Dems unite in their message instead of spatting about it.
Remember that the Extreme's "favoring" of trump has been mostly via the shadow docket. It has been a postponing of the actual issues involving his lawless behavior. The more trump is "encouraged" to keep up the lawlessness, the likelier that the ultimate result will be more bridges too far.
What would it have taken to get the ACA agreement into the CR? Isn't there a fair chance that they would have had to support the rest of the "clean resolution?" That would include funding for ICE, which is NOT in this bill. It would have included approving of the changes to Medicaid, right now postponed to after the midterms. There is a whole lot in the BBB that needs opposing and much is still available to oppose once this limited CR expires.
So I'm more in agreement with Marshall than you on the the direness of this compromise. I don't have trouble with Indivisible primarying those Dems who they don't think are pugnacious enough, so long as that doesn't actually weaken the chances of those who do win in the general midterm election.
I was livid about what happened. Felt betrayed and so sad. Then I watched Lawrence. He calmed me down. He had such good insight on the workings of the Senate and why some of what happened, happened. We have to continue our fight for democracy and get Trump out of office. We must win the midterms. We must get the Epstein files released. I read Virginias book. OMG what those woman went through is sickening. We have to continue our fight.
Well Democrats you can spit on me, crap on my head (oh sorry that was the guy you just gave away our wins to), mismanage the power you do have, and not be able to message your way out of a kindergarten debate. I WILL NOT BE DETERRED. I protest, donate, attend town halls, write someone’s almost daily. I cancel Spotify, don’t shop at Target or Walmart, have to take sober Sundays for sanity and I still move ahead. I wish our electeds had the courage I have seen in our community. But this I promise. No one will get my vote, my primary vote, or a donation unless as the Traitor in Chief refers to them, they are a “killer”. Back bone, bold policy calls, and the desire to crush all of them like a bug. No softies, no ten point plan, no we can’t take the cruelty anymore. The cruelty is the point and if you can’t gut your way through that as a politician today, you are in the wrong job. I did that dance for a while to want to cooperate. Then I realized the GOP looks at this as a blood sport and will settle for nothing less. Are you ready people? Pack the court, make 2 new states, kill the filibuster, fire every MAGA for no cause, change the pardon process, convict everyone who failed the constitution. We can start there and then do even bigger things
I absolutely agree with your assessment, Robert. The eight Democrats who voted yes have sacrificed the long-term good for short-term gain. And in my view, all of this vindicates David Hogg and proves that he should not have been thrown out as vice-chair of the DNC.
Robert and all: I was one of those who went berserk yesterday. Today I’m back on track, and listening to Lawrence O'Donnell's Last Word gave me pause as to what Senator Kaine and the others were thinking when they voted with Republicans this past weekend. It is helpful to think about what Lawrence O’Donnell, who worked as a staff member in the Senate, has to say. (18 minutes). I know you have more than is possible to discuss, Robert, but I think his take is worth considering…
I am just listening to my recording of Lawrence O' Donnell from last night and I am at a loss here on his reporting that the Democrats got increased food stamp benefits in the deal. No where can I find anyone else reporting that higher benefits. Lawrence is usually factual but on this I do not know. Anyone else hear of this being in the deal?
My deepest concern is how the thousands of new younger voters will respond to their feelings of betrayal, after the euphoria of Tuesday 4th victory.
The youth votes were so rewarding for all of us who worked to engage them.
We must stay the course and keep the movement strong and young.
Thank you Mr Hubbell.You ha e articulated beautifully why capitulation was so wrong.
Just read the posting by Rachel Bitecofer (The Cycle on Substack). I'm breathing better. https://open.substack.com/pub/thecycle/p/reality-bites?r=h0feb&utm_medium=ios
Robert, your analysis of the capitulation by Senate Democrats is exactly right. Out of the jaws of victory on Oct 18 and Nov 4, we achieved defeat. Democratic Senate leadership and the weak-willed Senators of NH and Nevada, should be ashamed and replaced. Why are we always taking two steps forward and three back?
Initially I was angry about the switch of the few Democrats but as I give it some thought I understand where these five are coming from ……they have to look out from their constituents.. I also am a firm believer in that good comes out of things we are not expecting. So something good will come from this. So forward ho !!
It's all very well to say we need new leadership, but who would be better able to lead than Schumer. As Bernie Sanders said last night, nobody wants to be Senate Democratic Leader. He refused to condemn Schumer or other individuals. While I agree Democrats should have stood firm, a lot of people are suffering now and that can't be discounted.
i appreciate the dialogue here from all you who are way more informed than I. Since RH, HCR, and RR are my major daily guides in all this. And since attending intelligently, even when one has the time, still borders on being crazy making, I'm declaring clear agreement with RH. Thanking you again, RH, for another wise, fair, well-reasoned, informed, informative, generous, and, for me, compelling opinion/position. i have nothing beyond my appreciation to add to the complexity already discussed. And I will watch Lawrence whom i greatly respect as well.
Thank you, Robert. You explain the situation very well. I appreciate your attempt to present different sides of this issue. You do this well. Also I listened to Lawrence O’Donnell’s take but that did not change my thoughts. I hope that people who listened to Lawrence’s take will also listen to Jen Rubin’s discussion with Ezra Levin: https://open.substack.com/pub/contrarian/p/incandescent-rage-ezra-levin-on-the?r=biccw&utm_medium=ios. Ezra says because these are not normal times we need to elect Democrats who are fighters! If we are ever to get out of this mess, Democrats must learn to fight back against the authoritarian leader. I’m with Ezra; we must fight back and our leaders must lead the fight.
Yes, I agree we need leaders who will fight. What about the next battle? Or when it comes to fighting for election integrity? Or when the election doesn't go the way "he" wants it to. Every fight matters.
I think it’s important to realize that “The Democrats” did not surrender-most Democrats voted against the reopening package. That included Senator Schumer who somehow has become the focus of anger. That anger should be directed against Angus King and the 7 surrendering Democrats. If the Senate Democrats had had a different leader it would have gone the same way; leaders simply do not have the tools to force individual senators to vote a particular way.
I recommend Dan Rather's take: "Let’s hold on and take a steadying breath.
To understand what happened in Washington on Sunday night, you must recognize one immutable fact: the president was never going to negotiate. This is a game to him. The suffering of the citizenry is just part of his playbook.
The principle of least interest holds that the person who cares least in a relationship has the most power. That is Donald Trump in a nutshell. His repellent disregard for anyone but himself gives him power. It makes him a dogmatic opponent, one with few ways to leverage."
https://steady.substack.com/p/furious-you-should-be?utm_source=post-email-title&publication_id=247881&post_id=178553263&utm_campaign=email-post-title&isFreemail=true&r=cg143&triedRedirect=true&utm_medium=email
And Lucian Truscott's take "Don’t lose sleep over the shutdown deal": https://luciantruscott.substack.com/p/dont-lose-sleep-over-the-shutdown?utm_source=post-email-title&publication_id=255301&post_id=178557834&utm_campaign=email-post-title&isFreemail=true&r=cg143&triedRedirect=true&utm_medium=email
I don't think one should deny the outrage. I certainly felt it on first hearing of the news. But I also think that there is much that the Dems can use to continue to send the message both about the current crises AND the rule of law. The skepticism of the Extremes of the tariff argument suggests that trump is approaching a bridge too far at the highest court, and the lower courts continue to act to constrain trump's lawlessness.
I continue to be convinced that any lesson trump has "learned" about hostages and lawlessness is nothing new; he didn't need this to reinforce his continuing lawlessness. Nor do I think any obstruction by the GOP is likely to long be a "wildly successful strategy." Not if the Dems unite in their message instead of spatting about it.
Remember that the Extreme's "favoring" of trump has been mostly via the shadow docket. It has been a postponing of the actual issues involving his lawless behavior. The more trump is "encouraged" to keep up the lawlessness, the likelier that the ultimate result will be more bridges too far.
What would it have taken to get the ACA agreement into the CR? Isn't there a fair chance that they would have had to support the rest of the "clean resolution?" That would include funding for ICE, which is NOT in this bill. It would have included approving of the changes to Medicaid, right now postponed to after the midterms. There is a whole lot in the BBB that needs opposing and much is still available to oppose once this limited CR expires.
So I'm more in agreement with Marshall than you on the the direness of this compromise. I don't have trouble with Indivisible primarying those Dems who they don't think are pugnacious enough, so long as that doesn't actually weaken the chances of those who do win in the general midterm election.
I was livid about what happened. Felt betrayed and so sad. Then I watched Lawrence. He calmed me down. He had such good insight on the workings of the Senate and why some of what happened, happened. We have to continue our fight for democracy and get Trump out of office. We must win the midterms. We must get the Epstein files released. I read Virginias book. OMG what those woman went through is sickening. We have to continue our fight.
Well Democrats you can spit on me, crap on my head (oh sorry that was the guy you just gave away our wins to), mismanage the power you do have, and not be able to message your way out of a kindergarten debate. I WILL NOT BE DETERRED. I protest, donate, attend town halls, write someone’s almost daily. I cancel Spotify, don’t shop at Target or Walmart, have to take sober Sundays for sanity and I still move ahead. I wish our electeds had the courage I have seen in our community. But this I promise. No one will get my vote, my primary vote, or a donation unless as the Traitor in Chief refers to them, they are a “killer”. Back bone, bold policy calls, and the desire to crush all of them like a bug. No softies, no ten point plan, no we can’t take the cruelty anymore. The cruelty is the point and if you can’t gut your way through that as a politician today, you are in the wrong job. I did that dance for a while to want to cooperate. Then I realized the GOP looks at this as a blood sport and will settle for nothing less. Are you ready people? Pack the court, make 2 new states, kill the filibuster, fire every MAGA for no cause, change the pardon process, convict everyone who failed the constitution. We can start there and then do even bigger things
I absolutely agree with your assessment, Robert. The eight Democrats who voted yes have sacrificed the long-term good for short-term gain. And in my view, all of this vindicates David Hogg and proves that he should not have been thrown out as vice-chair of the DNC.
Robert and all: I was one of those who went berserk yesterday. Today I’m back on track, and listening to Lawrence O'Donnell's Last Word gave me pause as to what Senator Kaine and the others were thinking when they voted with Republicans this past weekend. It is helpful to think about what Lawrence O’Donnell, who worked as a staff member in the Senate, has to say. (18 minutes). I know you have more than is possible to discuss, Robert, but I think his take is worth considering…
https://www.msnbc.com/the-last-word/watch/lawrence-with-trump-s-shutdown-ending-dems-are-closer-than-ever-to-forcing-epstein-files-release-251756613516
I am just listening to my recording of Lawrence O' Donnell from last night and I am at a loss here on his reporting that the Democrats got increased food stamp benefits in the deal. No where can I find anyone else reporting that higher benefits. Lawrence is usually factual but on this I do not know. Anyone else hear of this being in the deal?
Sharing a heart rending yet glorious, timely, and necessary message to us all on Veterans Day.
You're not done yet.
https://www.meidasplus.com/p/a-different-kind-of-patriotism?r=nblx&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&showWelcomeOnShare=false